Ep. 2007: Follow the Money

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Hello, call it line. Please pay every time that you lie.

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And the money goes straight back to him.

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Wherever it goes. We're talking real money.

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It's Monday. That means it's the laws of financial physics

Financial Physics: Follow the Money

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again. Hi, everybody. Don McDonald here on the Talking Real Money Podcast. It's our special Monday edition. The uh the book Financial Physics has a number of laws, rules, and corollaries related to how money grows, how you invest, how you spend, all these kinds of things. And we decided that uh over the course of several weeks here at the end of 2026, we're going to share with you one law of financial physics a week. And this week, Tom, which law of financial physics are we going to explore?

SPEAKER_02 1:40

I'm so glad you asked that. Don, this week we're going with uh Rule 15. Wow, 15. Significant. Uh so we've we've already done 14 then. We've done 14. I can do that math. You're very good. Uh the title being the author has said source consideration rule. Follow the money.

SPEAKER_01 1:59

Yeah.

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Wow.

SPEAKER_01 2:00

Consider the source. And actually, this rule is a little bit dated. When I wrote this book 15 years ago, 16 years ago. But then you updated it a few years later. Yeah, but but this one back 15, 20 years ago, the brokerage industry was much more prevalent in the financial services industry than it is today. There were a lot of commission products being sold. There are a lot fewer today. And back then, they you one of the ways you could tell if you had a good advisor or not was on by how they were compensated. So this one really focuses on considering their the source of their income, the source of their compensation.

SPEAKER_02 2:45

And we're gonna tell you that most of the time, most of the time, all the time, if if if the person you're working with collects a commission, they're not an advisor per se, right? Because they're g they're selling you a product.

SPEAKER_01 3:01

Yeah, and they're selling you a product that may not be best for you, because what's best for you is more than likely a product that doesn't cost as much so that the commission doesn't have to be paid to the advisor. And uh many, many years ago, the insurance or not the insurance, well, the insurance industry too, the the financial services industry decided that it was too hard to compete with no load funds, so they they muddied the compensation waters a bit.

SPEAKER_02 3:34

Boy, did they ever share class, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:39

They r they created sh classes of mutual funds that have been referred to over the past several decades as liar load funds or um uh commission and drag funds. These are funds where they try to hide their compensation from you. And that's why it's even more important that that you carefully vet not only your advisors, but the things they're putting you into.

SPEAKER_02 4:07

It's getting grayer all the time. I mean, I I think you correctly point out when the book was initially penned, uh it was clear the that the people in the brokerage industry were peddling products, and the people in the registered investment advisor industry were providing advice, getting paid on a regular basis for that. Now, because so many of you have said, I really got to have a fiduciary, and I really don't want to pay a commission on anything. Well, the business, the industry has simply said, Well, that sure we can do that. We can still be in broker-dealer relationships and charge you a fee and be your fiduciary, even though we can still charge you commissions as well. They've again, so it's harder, harder than I think that it was 20 years ago, unquestionably. But I think it's also more important than it's ever been. Because now what we're seeing oftentimes is people promise to be fiduciaries. This is what I see. And then you get in the door and you say, Oh, great, I got a fiduciary relationship, they're never gonna sell me anything, and then into the relationship at some point, introduced is a product of some kind. We've talked a lot about uh equity index annuities, that kind of product, where they say, look, you're getting ready to retire. You really don't want everyone to see your portfolio go down. We've got this thing, you're still gonna make market-like returns, and you're going to, you know, uh not ever see your balance go below whatever, and they're going to sell you a product. This is what I see on a regular basis. So it's tricky, far trickier, I think, than it used to be, Don.

SPEAKER_01 5:41

Well, and here's the thing, though, that this is really the the essence of this rule of financial physics. It comes down to the basics. Everybody you talk to in the investment services industry, and anyone who is suggesting a product, suggesting a plan, suggesting a portfolio, anyone who's providing that kind of a service must be compensated. You you've got to go into the relationship knowing they're going to be compensated. That allows you, once you've crossed that threshold, now that allows you to determine what the means of compensation is and whether or not it's better for you or better for them. And there are really only a couple of ways. There's two basic ways that Tom just mentioned. One is fees, the other is commissions. Those are the two big ones in the financial services industry. But there are variations on those themes. There are. Again, muddy the

Fees, Commissions, and Trust

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water.

SPEAKER_02 6:47

Yeah, and it gets muddier and muddier. So, for example, there's fee-only advisors, which is what we think you should use. You know what you're getting charged, it's very clear, et cetera, et cetera, versus fee-based advisors.

SPEAKER_01 7:02

Versus commission only advisors.

SPEAKER_02 7:04

Commission only. You know, so again, we're gonna go with the first one there. But also, I think there's just this aspect in a general sense, and you mentioned this, the author does in the book, that if you go to someone who is hawking a product, it really oftentimes is transactional, right? It's you're gonna go, you're gonna get this, it's gonna take care of you. I'm not gonna call you, I won't see you anymore. Whereas an advisor should be a continuing relationship, should be somebody who's looking at your situation every day, should be answering questions as they come up, taking care of you as your life changes. It's a completely different relationship. That's important. But also, I added to that, Don, and I mentioned fee base for fee only. I think when you're considering the source of the things that that advisor or uh salesperson are using, you have to decide for you whether you should be basing that, and you mentioned this briefly in this chapter, whether you're basing this on academic advice or Wall Street advice, because there's plenty of both. The difference is Wall Street's advice gets trumpeted every single day, everywhere. Whereas the advice from academics, you really got to kind of look and find your way to do it. David Booth's new book would be a place, but it's far harder to find that and to get it out to our job for the last 30 plus years has been to try to acquaint yourself with uh acquaint you with that. So it's been harder, I'll put it that way. But that's another source consideration I think you should should take into account as well.

SPEAKER_01 8:38

You're gonna find this fascinating, and I bet this I I think this might even shock you, Tom. I I I mentioned at the beginning how this rule is a little bit dated. Um I went back and looked. In the year 2000, according to the Investment Company Institute, which is the trade group of the mutual fund industry.

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Yeah.

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About mutual fund transactions were commissioned. Wow.

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Or 12 B one.

SPEAKER_01 9:09

Yeah, or 12 B1, which is the hidden sales load. The hidden sales load. Uh 54 percent.

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In 2025, don't tell me, I'm gonna take a guess. I'll say 15 percent.

SPEAKER_01 9:21

Eight. Wow. That is dramatic. Look at how the industry has changed. Yeah. And and and you know, coincidentally, that's just about you know how long we've been doing radio shows and podcasts about this.

SPEAKER_02 9:33

Oh, we're gonna we're gonna take credit for this one, aren't we? Maybe. Okay, a little bit of credit, sure, why not?

SPEAKER_01 9:38

Somebody had to somebody had to start this trend away from commissions. But you notice how dramatic that change is. That's and we're we're to the point, now we're to the point, really, where almost everybody is fee-only or fee-based.

SPEAKER_02 9:51

Yeah, uh, which I love. And so a couple of things if you're thinking of hiring somebody. You mentioned this, but I think it should be it can't be overplayed. Always know how someone is getting paid. By the way, the company never pays them.

SPEAKER_01 10:04

No, that's the big lie.

SPEAKER_02 10:06

I know, but I will say this in fairness to what we do for people, because they're gonna say, wait, don't you say you have a free meeting, et cetera, et cetera? Yeah, the company gives me the time, and the they're willing to let me spend time with people. Sure, some people become clients, not everybody, but I do give a lot of free advice to people. I help a lot of people. It does.

SPEAKER_01 10:26

Can I let you in on a little secret though? I just that it's not out of pure altruism. There is a degree of that because both Tom and I, when when we started Vestry years ago, really were struggling trying to you know figure out how we can give free advice. We've been giving free advice on the radio and on podcasts for decades. But I mean to let you in on a little secret. And I think more businesses should should recognize this, and I think a few do. Yeah. I think business more like Costco, you know, it if you treat your customers really, really well and you give them like free snacks in the store like Costco does, it drives business. It's it's good for business. Yeah. Yeah. I call it, you know, I call it karmic marketing. It's like if you do good for others, they they see you in a different light. They do, and they read it.

SPEAKER_02 11:20

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I'm reading a book right now called Unreasonable Hospitality, which is this exact same thing. This is in the service industry, which, by the way, the advisory industry is the service. They don't want to say they are, but they are. They don't realize.

SPEAKER_01 11:32

Of course we are.

SPEAKER_02 11:33

Yeah. So because we're but anyway, because that's one. Number two, um, I am always, and I think the author mentions this as well, always going to believe peer-reviewed white paper research over anything that Wall Street produces. Sorry, Wall Street, they have a new idea. What did you say? What did Gene Fama say? A new five new ideas a week.

SPEAKER_01 11:52

Yeah, it was Gene Fama who said I uh he said uh uh Wall Street has a new idea every, I think it was every few months. And uh, he said in my in his career he had only seen five. In his 15 years, in his lifetime, yeah, exactly. One every 10 years.

SPEAKER_02 12:08

And then this one as well, which because this came up when I was uh lucky enough to have lunch with David Booth recently, uh, and we're talking about organizations and dimensional funds is one of them. Ethical organizations you should seek out and you should work with them and you should trust them. I think dimensional is one of them, by the way. That that that is makes a difference. There are a ton of people in the money business that wouldn't surprise you to know that are completely unethical. They really well they have no more morals whatsoever other than to make money for their shareholders. That's it. End of story.

SPEAKER_01 12:39

I I call them the Larry, Daryl, and Darrell's. Larry, Daryl, and Daryl. Please explain. You remember the New Heart show? Of course. Yeah. The guy's Larry. That's my brother Daryl, and that's my other brother Daryl. And what was their slogan?

SPEAKER_02 12:52

I don't remember.

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Anything for a buck.

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Anything for a buck, yeah.

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Anything for a buck. Larry, Daryl, and Darrell's.

SPEAKER_02 12:59

So that's an important chapter that's again, um, as you said, uh for me, getting grayer all the time. Harder to differentiate because that's what the industry wants to do.

unknown 13:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:10

They want to make it harder on you.

SPEAKER_01 13:11

But again, the the on the flip side, the positive side is the fact that now we're getting into a time, we're getting close to a time when everybody is going to be fee only, I believe. I think commissions except in insurance are gonna are just gonna vanish. Everybody's gonna be fee only. So the differentiator is going to be what the fees of the services are provided are, plus the fees of the funds and the products that they suggest.

SPEAKER_02 13:39

And what that includes. Now, there are going to be people in the business that just say, I'll build your portfolio, rebalance it once a year, God bless. But the good advisors are going to look at your taxes, they're going to look at your estate, they're going to look at all, you know, Social Security, all the strategies go around your money, and they should be a resource for your family, right? That's a good advisor. The other ones, there, and there are a lot of them that just say, I'll build you a great portfolio. I've done the research, these are fantastic funds for you to be in. I'll rebalance it once a year and you get on your way. That's not enough in my book

How Much Should Advice Cost?

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in this business.

SPEAKER_01 14:14

Right. So you've got the fees that you can use as a differentiator, but uh I mean the the services provided for the fees. But you know, right off the bat, you got the fees themselves. And there are advisors. I've read thousands of form ADVs, the form that advisors file with the SEC, the public-facing form, the ADV Part II form where they spell out their fee structure. And I have read lots of these. The good firms generally charge 1% or less, the ones that I think are good. That's just my opinion. The bad firms, there are firms out there charging 3% per year.

SPEAKER_02 14:53

That's that's outrageous for financial planning. You see, the brokerage, major brokerage houses will charge two. I've seen that from the big guys. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:02

One of the biggest fee-only ones, they advertise everywhere, all the time. It's who? Who's the one that advertises Fisher?

SPEAKER_02 15:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:11

Their highest fee, if you have less than a million dollars with Fisher, it's one and a half percent, which is fifty percent higher than a Pella. Fifty percent higher.

SPEAKER_02 15:26

Uh, I mean, this is the part that people don't equate.

SPEAKER_01 15:28

They're gonna get down to they don't get down to one percent. Until when? Five million under management.

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And they're one of the biggest RAAs, although they have not they have not scaled the way some others have by buying up firms. Ken Fisher.

SPEAKER_01 15:44

No, because they they're they're just doing they're they're growing organically. Yeah. Yeah. TV. Look at the fees. Look, look, look at the fees. The fees are important, they matter. Thanks for listening. All right. You have any questions? I do have questions. Or anything else? No. I'm talking to the listeners. Oh, okay.

unknown 16:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:03

Don't you know? I should have a little signal that this is for the listeners. If you have a question, you can send it to us or speak it to us at talkingrealmoney.com. Sending it to us involves clicking the button that says ask a question. Speaking it to us involves clicking the mic in the lower right corner. If you uh speak them to us, they go on the Friday QA podcast. If you type them to us, they go to this guy right here with a stack O paper.

SPEAKER_02 16:30

Speak 'em? I like the way that sounds. Speak 'em.

Bond ETFs and Market Nerves

SPEAKER_02 16:33

Speak 'em. Uh from Little Elm, Texas, David writes us. This is a follow-up to my original question I sent in last week. Um, I've been way behind on listening, so I may have missed it, but I asked you to address the bond exchange traded fund. I have not heard your recent wisdom on the topic. Uh, if it still makes sense to address what I wrote, then I look forward to hearing it. So this has come up well in two parts.

SPEAKER_01 16:58

I don't understand the question.

SPEAKER_02 17:00

Well, I think the question is should I own bonds today because bond prices have gone down?

SPEAKER_01 17:05

Isn't it funny how we get into a particular topic uh and it and it just keeps running? We we have been talking about bonds for months. Now everybody's freaking out about bonds because interest rates went up.

SPEAKER_02 17:18

BND, the total bond is down a whopping like 2% year to date. 2%. Uh, you know, so but it's a lot more than that in the last couple months. Yeah, okay. Uh I try not to look and try not to look in short periods of time because that'll make you do bad things. So, okay, that's part one. Part two is bond ETFs. Um, there are some great ones, there are some lousy ones. There's some ones that are inexpensive, and there's some ones that way overcharge. We're always going to err on the side of a more passive style, wide diversification, cheaper, and short and intermediate term duration. Uh, that's our opinion. It's been our opinion for 30 plus years, and it we've never wavered. Now there are going to be those of you who come along and tell me, well, if you'd managed it more differently in the last five years, you would have made more money. Sure. And by the way, if you'd just bought NVIDIA stock in the last five years, you'd have made more money too. Uh, that doesn't change what I believe about any of that. So I think, David, that answers your question. Would you like to add anything, sir, on bond exchange traded funds?

SPEAKER_01 18:20

I just want to add to the to you when you mentioned I uh and again, this is the whole freakout about bonds. The worst year BND has ever had, and it's the worst year bonds have ever had, was 2022.

SPEAKER_02 18:33

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 18:34

Where BND, the Vanguard Total Bond Index, lost 13%. That was a bad year. Uh the worst year for the S P 500 was about a 55% loss? That's about right, yeah. Yeah, about right. Uh year to date, year to date, January through the middle of October when we recorded this. The total return and everybody's freaking out. You were wrong.

SPEAKER_02 18:59

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

The total return is negative one point five. Wait, let's just look at recently. They say, oh no, but it's been much worse recently. That's what they say. Negative one point seven over three months.

SPEAKER_02 19:15

Well, that's much worse. You know, another 20%.

SPEAKER_01 19:17

Oh wait, how about one month?

unknown 19:19

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 19:21

Down one Wait, uh about down five uh five tenths of one percent. So half a percent, we might say. No, I'm sorry. Five one hundredths of one percent. So in essence, it hasn't over a month, BND hasn't moved at all. We This is why we say quit looking. Just quit looking. Quit reading articles about bonds. It's just gonna freak you out. And remember, you're supposed to have a diversified portfolio. Bonds are only a part of it. Yeah, that's good.

SPEAKER_02 19:59

Um, okay, so I was wrong there. Sorry about that. It's okay.

SPEAKER_01 20:02

No, I just wanted to make it because it was lower than you said, even. I mean, it was just the return is not, it's basically flat.

SPEAKER_02 20:09

And guess what? I was wrong again on something else.

SPEAKER_01 20:12

More importantly, you've been wrong. Wait, you're gonna be wrong twice in one episode? I know.

SPEAKER_02 20:17

This may be it. This is a

Correcting the Market History

SPEAKER_02 20:19

uh because Brian in Corvallis, Oregon, home of Oregon State University, the Beavers. Hi, Don and Tom. I love the podcast and listen every day. Quick question. Tom, you have said several times if the SP 500 gains 10% this year, it will be the first time in history it's gone up double digits for straight years. He's absolutely right. I read that somewhere and I've used that quote many times. Then he points out, didn't it go up double digits from five years from 1995 to 1999? What am I missing? Thanks. Well, Brian, you're not missing a thing. I had it wrong. That's right. 95, 96, 97, 98, and 99. Double digits every single one of those years. So we would have to have not just this year, but next year. Because I've been, you know, I've I hate it. I sound like the you know, the, you know, somebody yelling fire in a theater. I'm only saying the market's gone up a lot, and you should be always prepared for the next bear market, and especially when it's gone up that much. But that does not uh preclude me from admitting that I was wrong. Maya culpa, I I I don't remember where I read this. I tried to go back, by the way, in the show notes to find it. I could not, but I have said this on many occasions. So Brian is absolutely right. So it'd be one more year, absolutely have to go up double digits in 2027 to equal what it did in the late 90s. By the way, for those market historians out there, remember what happened after 1999. Enough said.

SPEAKER_01 21:44

Yeah, well, or what happened after 1989. We had that 1990 decline, too.

SPEAKER_02 21:50

That's true.

SPEAKER_01 21:52

Um so uh the I think the longest that is the longest double digit. The longest bull market, just uh positive market without a decline of twenty percent, which is a bear, was eighty-seven to two thousand. So that that period falls in there.

SPEAKER_02 22:14

Eighty-seven to two thousand. Oh, okay. All right.

SPEAKER_01 22:16

Yeah, that was a twelve about almost a twelve year bull market. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:23

Yeah. After the eighty-seven after the big downturn in the fall, or did that include the entire year?

SPEAKER_01 22:28

That was after the downturn in the fall.

SPEAKER_02 22:30

Okay, because that was a bad that was very steep. But um I'm trying to think that through. So that's right. The 90s were they were pretty doggone good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:38

Yeah, but remember the 90 decline stopped just short of a of a full bear market. So um it went it actually technically went through 2,000.

SPEAKER_02 22:49

By the way, um, before I get to this last question, someone kindly sent me, I haven't even told you this or sent it to you, over the weekend. Someone found there's a repository. Now I think it's American Public Broadcasting or something. There's a repository of every TV show I did on public television. Somebody sent me the link with you and I on the stored all those somewhere. It's all up there. So I went through, I was watching some over the weekend. Me and Magic Johnson, me and Alan Malale from Boeing. So it's all there you go. You thought you were going to be able to do that. You and a very young Don McDonald? You know, very young Tom Cock. I'm looking at me too. So any rate, uh Russell from Albuquerque, New Mexico says, How come I never got the cheese pizza back from the roof? No, that's a bad joke. Is that a breaking bad joke? Yeah, that's a breaking bad joke. He says, This is

Roth Conversions: It Depends

SPEAKER_02 23:42

really good. All of these facts point to a he says, why he said, What here's the subject. Why don't financial advisors ever discuss these statistical facts when deciding between Roth and traditional accounts or Roth conversions?

SPEAKER_01 23:56

Oh my gosh. May I say something before you start? This sounds like another overthinker.

SPEAKER_02 24:01

This is another overthinker. He is spot on. I love this. He says all the facts to choosing a traditional account and never doing Roth conversion, but none of the financial planners ever mention these factors. One thing I've learned is to never say ever. But anyway, statistically, spouses outlive their husbands by many years.

SPEAKER_01 24:18

Okay. That's statistically, yes.

SPEAKER_02 24:20

But sometimes divorced spouses will have lower taxable incomes. Yeah, that's true too. Okay. Statistically, spouses earn less taxable income, so changing to the higher tax rate of a single filer versus a married filing jointly will not impact their current tax bracket for most spouses. That's true too. I'm led to believe it's because financial planners make a living from charging conversion fees.

SPEAKER_01 24:47

Hmm. What the heck's a conversion fee?

SPEAKER_02 24:49

I don't know what that is. Uh, I guess that could be selling a fund and then buying another one, I suppose. If you charge. There's no commissions. I don't know how that happens. Something most people can do themselves without paying a financial planner, especially now with AI to double check their income level and tax bracket. I think that's all true. I do think that Roth conversions in the last 15 years have become one of those things like you really got to do Roth conversions. Everybody's got to convert to Roth. Um, that most of the time proves to be inaccurate. Roth conversion should be reviewed every year to see, as as Russell points out, what bracket you're in, if you have space in that bracket, if you have cash available to pay the taxes, and it makes sense in an overall financial plan for retirement. But I do think it's been overused. Part two is I think there's the other part that he alludes to, but gently. When you're saving for retirement, especially if you're just getting going, it makes sense to save in a traditional, in a Roth, and in a taxable account because we don't know what the tax rates will be on any of what we do know on Roth, hopefully, will look like in 20, 30, 40 years. So you should give yourself the option of being able to pull from all various different pots, if you will.

SPEAKER_01 26:01

Yeah, and anybody worth their salt um is gonna tell you there's no absolute. We've never, ever said, oh yeah, you should just convert to a Roth. Never.

SPEAKER_02 26:12

There are people out there that do, though. It depends. Yep, it really depends.

SPEAKER_01 26:16

Like everything else. I mean, that is our mantra. It depends. So to your point, yeah. Convert if it makes financial sense. Don't if it doesn't. Yep. And Roths are not always the best way. I contribute to a traditional 401k, not a Roth 401k. Why do I do that?

SPEAKER_02 26:40

Because I'm in a high bracket now. You're required to do the Roth now as well.

SPEAKER_01 26:45

Oh, I have to for part of it, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:46

Because of the change in the tax laws. But you and I are in the same boat. I do take the deduction now because my rate is higher now than what I expect it will be later.

SPEAKER_01 26:55

Right. Because I've done some preliminary planning and I my income level is going to be lower five years from now. It should be than it is now, unless some miracle happens, which I never anticipate.

SPEAKER_02 27:07

Imagine us still doing the show five years. So five years, uh 200 shows a year, that'd be another thousand shows. We'd be at 3,000 instead of 2,000.

SPEAKER_01 27:14

We'd be at 3,000. Well, that's kind of push that on the that's what my preliminary plan is for me, anyway.

SPEAKER_02 27:22

Total domination, 3,000. There's not very many people, by the way, and for those of you listening at home, that have done 2,000 financial podcasts. Very few. We walked through that recently. Anyway, uh your your point is well taken. Uh I think it's very reasonable, and Roth conversion should not be done lightly. That's what I would say. And anyone who runs around and tells you you have to have a Roth conversion, I don't trust them as much because that worries me that they're saying you really have to do this. And Don said the correct thing. It depends.

SPEAKER_01 27:53

Yeah. If you got questions, send them into us at talkingrealmoney.com. Speak them or type them, it doesn't matter. Either way, uh, we really truly appreciate all your questions and try to answer all of them if we can. Um

Halloween’s Trick-or-Treat Economics

SPEAKER_01 28:08

I just wanted to mention something for you podcast listeners out there, who are that's all of you, I assume. Uh if for some strange reason, I can't imagine why, because it's ridiculously expensive, but if for some strange reason you subscribe to The Economist, the British financial publication uh and get their podcast.

SPEAKER_02 28:32

No kidding, okay.

SPEAKER_01 28:34

Um there there's a podcast called The Weeknd Intelligence that intelligence that aired a couple of weeks ago, uh a little over a week ago, um about the town I live in. And so if you do subscribe, you might want to listen. It's what did it say about old celebration? It's it the the the the title is The Town That Disney Built. Uh an Indian reporter and his producer came to town and we spent a couple hours together talking about it because I'm the president of the HOA and I've lived here for 30 years. And uh oh yeah, I made the cut. Yeah. He made fun of me because he was he was he was tickled. He goes, Your name is really Donald McDonald?

SPEAKER_02 29:16

I can see that. Okay. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:19

Really? What was I said, my father was a cruel person. Um but Thanks, Dad. But anyway, in it, we talked we talk about, and I was thinking about this today. We discussed the the insanity that is Halloween in celebration.

SPEAKER_02 29:36

Absolute madness.

SPEAKER_01 29:38

Outdoes anything, I think, anywhere in the country. Anywhere. I described Halloween as the sidewalks turn into conveyor belts of greedy children.

SPEAKER_02 29:51

Okay, but just give it a number. How many pieces of candy you give out in a typical year?

SPEAKER_01 29:56

I uh I'm off the beaten path. So I'm slightly off the beat.

SPEAKER_02 30:00

Stop it. No, you're not.

SPEAKER_01 30:01

No, but the main street is, you know, uh you know where the main street is.

SPEAKER_02 30:04

Yes, I do. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 30:06

The main street, our neighbors on the main street hand out somewhere between five and seven thousand pieces of candy a night.

SPEAKER_02 30:13

That's just outrageous.

SPEAKER_01 30:15

We hand out between five hundred and a thousand, depending on when it is.

SPEAKER_02 30:19

And what does that run? Speaking of not saving for retirement, how much is it to buy five thousand pieces of candy? It's a lot.

SPEAKER_01 30:28

It's hundreds of dollars. Yes, that's it's hundreds of dollars. So we're deciding this year whether to participate or not. We're really considering because it's on a Saturday. Yeah. Uh we're really considering just drawing the curtains, turning off the lights, and watching a movie in the back.

SPEAKER_02 30:43

No, you could go to the theater and watch the Elizabeth Holmes thing. I'm sure you have to do that.

SPEAKER_01 30:46

I want to go see that. Yeah, I'm sure. I think three.

SPEAKER_02 30:48

Three hours in the theater with her big eyes looking right at you.

SPEAKER_01 30:51

But it occurred to me when I was thinking about this that a lot because families come from all over the place. Around the country, they come to trick or treat in celebration. And it occurred to me, I'm thinking, uh somebody wrote online, well, why don't they just trick or treat in their own neighborhoods?

SPEAKER_02 31:07

Ooh, because they don't get fancy candy the way they do in celebration.

SPEAKER_01 31:11

It's it's return on investment. It's totally it's an ROI, it's an ROI calculation. Think about it for a minute. In celebration, because it's a new urban community, the houses are closer together. Yeah. There are more of them, they're tightly packed. You can get, you know, on a single block of a street in celebration, you can get, you know, eight, ten, twelve houses.

SPEAKER_02 31:32

And if you're unlucky, you could run into the alligator that would snap it all up, including you, very quickly. So there you go.

SPEAKER_01 31:38

Well, that too. We got those, but they don't do their job on Halloween, apparently. We haven't seen a single kid. Eliminate a few. But I it I thought about it, and they're and they're making an investment decision. Yeah. I'm going to invest my time, let's go, let's go where I'll get the most candy.

SPEAKER_02 31:56

Yeah, that's why we don't get anyone here, right?

SPEAKER_01 31:59

Because it's not you don't even have a front door that faces a street. Your front door faces a w an eagle.

SPEAKER_02 32:08

That's a good point. So maybe we should be putting out dead fish. Is that what you're saying?

SPEAKER_01 32:12

No, I I cannot imagine where you are there's ever a single trick-or-treater because you guys are all behind walls.

SPEAKER_02 32:18

There's somebody two doors down that uh just has all the decorations. He's right on the street, but and we're back, as you know. But no, we're gonna shut everything, shut the whole thing down this year. We decided to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_01 32:28

Some families back in the early days would put out just the big bowl on the porch and say, pick one.

unknown 32:33

Ha ha ha.

SPEAKER_02 32:35

You would be your windows would be sh would be soaped up quick because you're gonna be able to do that. Testing human nature. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 32:42

Those bowls emptied almost immediately. Uh, you want to see the worst of humanity at a young age. We'll watch them trick-or-treating. Although I gotta tell you, for a few minutes, it's adorable. For a few minutes.

SPEAKER_02 32:55

Well, there's always a few of those cute kids out there dressed up.

SPEAKER_01 32:58

And the early ones, they're cute. It's come 9 or 10 or 11 o'clock at night. When they're 13 and 14, then I'm when it's all 19-year-olds with a sweet tooth, or you know, they smoked some pot and they got munchies.

SPEAKER_02 33:15

You're really, you're really, you're really hitting a new low here, but I'll let you. Why not?

SPEAKER_01 33:20

Well, but I've I made the investment connection. That's what I thought. That's what I was saying.

SPEAKER_02 33:24

The elevator, no, what'd you call it? The escalator of connection.

SPEAKER_01 33:27

No, the the moving sidewalk.

SPEAKER_02 33:28

Moving sidewalk of children ready to pop right up in front of you. Good luck.

SPEAKER_01 33:33

It's just and and literally it's like that. They just line up, and all you do is just as they keep coming up the stairs and they go, trick-or-treat, there you go, thank you, trick-or-treat, there you go, thank you, trick-or-treat, there you go, thank you. All night. And the traffic jams. Because they don't live in town. The only way to get here is to drive. Ridiculous. Yeah. So I on second thought, don't come to celebration for Thanksgiving.

SPEAKER_02 34:01

Don't go to Don's house, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_01 34:03

I I I was walking the dog yesterday and I looked around the neighborhood and I went because people used to go crazy decorating here because we have a lot of imagineers from Disney and stuff. Yeah, real deal. And and they would just go wild decorating. And I walked around my neighborhood in houses that were always really done up. Nothing. There's a few of the stupid blow-ups, which are, by the way, the laziest decoration on the face of the plane.

SPEAKER_02 34:29

You might think you're cool, but you look like you didn't do a damn thing.

SPEAKER_01 34:32

Yeah. Oh, I bought a blow-up of a monster. Yeah, that's not decorating.

SPEAKER_02 34:36

Sell it to your local used car

Farewell and Disclosures

SPEAKER_02 34:38

dealer when you're done.

SPEAKER_01 34:39

So all right. Yeah. Never mind. We got to go now. Thanks for being a part of the program. We appreciate you so very much. And uh tell a friend or two, and don't forget to follow us. Not literally, not like you're stalking us, but I mean, follow us on your podcast app like Apple or Spotify or whatever. Okay? Do you have anything else you'd like to add, Tom?

SPEAKER_02 34:59

No. I send me some more cough medicine, so please.

SPEAKER_01 35:04

And uh do us a favor, go to Talking Real Money, don't uh and uh send in your question, and don't forget We're talking real money.

SPEAKER_00 35:15

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