The Right Withdrawal Rate?

SPEAKER_02 0:05

You're gonna do a really great financial feature. Tom and Don are talking real

Retirement Spending Rules

SPEAKER_02 0:11

money.

SPEAKER_01 0:12

Many of you, particularly those of you who listen to Talking Real Money, are exemplary savers and sometimes actually even decent investors, although sometimes not. So here's the question. When you get to retirement and you want to start living off of your assets, how much money should you spend? Should you stick with the 4% rule or the 5% flexible rule? Or are there times when you can go a little crazy? Do a little more. Get down tonight? No, no, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I was got the wedding thing again. Uh hi everybody. Don here at uh the Talking Real Money Florida headquarters. Tom there in the Model Military Aircraft Museum in beautiful Duval, Washington, where uh the tourists are lining up for the uh the the weekend opening when they can all get to come in and stare at the planes.

SPEAKER_00 1:12

Dan Hutt. We're ready, sir.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

Ticket prices are are rising, so you might want to get your tickets soon.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

Or as we like to say here, let the bombing begin. So there's a lot of people.

SPEAKER_01 1:20

Because remember, we want you to help Tom be able to spend even more money on vacation and retirement. And so uh how much should you spend? That's really a big question. Some people say less than four percent, some people say four, some people say five, some people say no, you're not spending enough. What's the right answer? Yeah, there is no right answer. So thanks a lot, then never mind.

SPEAKER_00 1:46

Yeah, and you know, I mean, all joking aside, I spent I don't like it. I spending too much money right now. Every day I look at the bills. No, don't no, no, no, oh, okay, they already spent that, can't stop it. But interesting survey from the principal financial group where they asked uh private sector companies about how much they asked people, how much do you think you need saved? Now, 56%, that's almost six out of ten, think they need 30 years of income saved before they can retire comfortably.

SPEAKER_01 2:14

Okay, stop there. That's a big number. That's wait. So hold on. That's really an optimistic number.

SPEAKER_00 2:21

Yeah, it really is.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

You're gonna live a long time. Let's see. Let's say retirement is well, it used to be 65, but I guess we should say 67 now.

SPEAKER_00 2:34

Well, no, there's some in politics who say it's gonna be 69. Okay, but that's right. Now that's later, maybe. But no, I think if you looked at the average still is about 65. I think that's we looked that up not long ago. Is it really? It is still about 65. I think most that's the kind of down the middle. Average person retires at age 65 in in America. I think that's a good one.

SPEAKER_01 2:56

Okay, so all right, let's go with 65. A sixty-five-year-old man has a 75% chance of reaching 75. Okay, that's pretty good. Okay. Half. Half this is where your median comes in, are gonna make 85. Which is pretty lengthy lifestyle. Life, I think. 10% are gonna make it to 95.

SPEAKER_00 3:31

Yeah. It's optimistic. Yeah, you're right. And and but that's men.

SPEAKER_01 3:36

Now, women, of course, get a little bit better chance because again, back to my theory, women kill us off earlier so they can enjoy some time. So they can enjoy some time without us bugging them.

SPEAKER_00 3:46

I I can't blame them.

Withdrawal Rates Matter

SPEAKER_00 3:48

Uh so yeah, this okay, but going back to the beginning of all this, the survey, um, 30 years worth of income, that would I mean, you could everybody can run the number themselves, but that would be a lot of money saved. The the average, of course, is much, much. I can't even say enough um enough much to go as far down below that would be.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

Well, no, although if you use the 4% rule and you have a 50-50 portfolio, we've run lots of Monte Carlos, and the money tends to last. It does 30 years more and more. If invested. If invested, yes.

SPEAKER_00 4:21

Sequence of return. There's some ifs in there that can that can hamper uh what happens, but yeah, it it does kind of work. But here's the other part. More than half believe they can restrict where they find these people. More than half think they can take out 10% a year of their savings and things will work out. 10%. That's a pretty sizable increase from the forecast.

SPEAKER_01 4:43

Pretty sure, pretty sure that uh you've got to be making better than seven or eight percent on your money to make that last.

SPEAKER_00 4:55

That was a getting to that, right? Because there are those uh who are out there as financial commentators who say, Wait, as long as you're you're you're you're you're making more than you're taking off, and if you there's a one mutual fund that pays you twelve percent of your hands. You're talking Dave Ramsey. Ah, thank you. You broke the code there.

SPEAKER_01 5:10

Say it.

SPEAKER_00 5:10

Okay. They're gonna make it.

SPEAKER_01 5:11

And you know that's Ramsey with his silly, I don't know where I know where he got the number. He got the number from American funds, from a uh you know growth-oriented fund that had done 12 percent per year, but not over a hundred years because it didn't exist. We have a hard time finding anything that over a hundred years would have returned better than ten percent per year. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_00 5:36

Well, not to pick on Mr. Ramsey, he does not sit across the table from any recent retirees or people been retired. He's just the the information comes from his mouth and goes out to the great uh all of us. And uh at the great unwashed, that's all I think I was not gonna say that. The thing is, it's different when you do this one-on-one and you have to talk to people through all of this. It's a that's a toy.

SPEAKER_01 5:59

And you have to face them when they're in their late 80s and they're out of money.

SPEAKER_00 6:03

Yeah, and or the market's gone down 40%, or what you know, whatever thing. So, anyway, going back to this, so yeah, 10%, that would be a very aggressive withdrawal strategy. And if you're one of the 10% that lives to your mid-90s, it probably will not work. No, uh, maybe your mid-70s, maybe, but 10% is a very aggressive amount. So, um, but this is this is all conjecture. This is all guessing. This is we don't know because we don't know the future, but more importantly, we don't know you. Every person, Don knows this, has their own withdrawal strategy. My withdrawal strategy is not to do it for a long time. Uh, and that's that compresses. I for a number of years, I'm not I'm not planning on it because I think I'll keep working if I can't, if you'll still have me on this wonderful program you've created here, and don't sub Roxy or somebody else in for me, as some people suggest. Uh I'll keep working. So I'm not gonna have to draw for a time. That's good. I I'm happy about that. But every individual or couple should have a plan, and you shouldn't be relying on guesswork or polls or anything else. That is an extremely dangerous way to handle your retirement.

Age Changes the Plan

SPEAKER_01 7:17

And uh the there also have to be a number of other factors that come into play, and and there's one of them that gets very, very little discussion. And that is if you start earlier, if you if you retire at 60 or 65, you're starting earlier, your money has to last a lot longer. So you really must be more conservative with your withdrawals.

SPEAKER_00 7:43

And I'm seeing that more and more, more and more people write me in their late 50s and say, I want to pull the pull the trigger.

SPEAKER_01 7:48

Well, if you pull the trigger then, though, it starts it starts becoming a little more dicey on even the four or the five percent rule, potentially if we have protracted downturns in the market, and that's where you have to become more conservative. Whereas those of us, and I'm looking at us, yeah, uh, who are waiting into their 70s before giving up some of work, probably not all of it, even then. Well, when we actually purely retire, we're gonna have a lot l a lot less life ahead of us. So we can afford to be a little more aggressive with our spending.

SPEAKER_00 8:31

It only follows. I can spend less because I won't need these fancy clothes, I won't need these nice ties all the time, right? I can just dress more Don McDonald-ish, if you will. Sir. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:42

When was the last time you bought a new suit?

SPEAKER_00 8:44

I buy one tie now every year for retirement.

SPEAKER_01 8:46

And when was the last time you bought a new suit?

SPEAKER_00 8:52

No, clothing.

SPEAKER_01 8:53

Uh clothing expense. No. Uh let's see, biggest expense for you it's gonna say the house, but not. I'm going for vacations.

SPEAKER_00 9:02

Yeah, it probably is. It probably is going for vacations.

SPEAKER_01 9:04

Yeah, I think you're right. So you take some nice ass vacations.

Get Personalized Advice

SPEAKER_00 9:07

I do. I admit it. So, okay, but going back to just a withdrawal rate and people trying to figure this out. Number one, anybody, and I don't care if you've done any of the online calculators, they're out there, some are pretty good. Anybody should have a look by a professional. That's my advice anytime, and you can get it for very inexpensive, or in some cases, if you've really done all the legwork, probably nothing. But somebody should look that over. Number two, and this comes from Christine Benz, who I still love this quote the only correct withdrawal rate we know will be after you're dead. Then you'll know whether you took too much or too little, right? And and the the survey points out most people end up taking too little, which is a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 9:45

And here's the beauty of the the uh the flexible withdrawal rate. Even if it's a higher withdrawal rate, even if you take it up to like six, seven, eight percent per year. Flexible. Yep. That means in bad years you take less, and in great years you take a lot more. It's gonna be very hard to run out of money because you you're not drawing down much more than you're you're making on average over a long period of time, and it would take a protracted downturn in the market, which has never happened to that extent, to really hurt you. So your odds are pretty, pretty, pretty

Flexible Withdrawals Work

SPEAKER_01 10:23

good.

SPEAKER_00 10:23

Yeah. Uh and let me mention a couple other mistakes I see. Um, this one happens a lot to people, especially it seems a lot of people start saving and then family stuff gets in the way, right? I got the kids, I got, et cetera, et cetera. And they don't know how much they should save. And you we've recommended many times 10 to 15% of your gross salary should be saved in some way. But that can be very difficult when you're in those formative years when you got a family, et cetera. But that's number one. The other one that I see almost every single time for people who are close to retirement, they don't know what rate of return they need on their money to sustain their portfolio. They don't know if it needs to be 7% or 10 or 12%, whatever it is. Uh you got to know that. And then the other one that I see on a very regular basis, in addition to that, is too much or too little risk. Most people are either taking a ton of risk, um, and I could go through the examples if you like, but you know who you are, or you've got it all stashed away in cash somewhere, waiting for whatever to happen in the world or the market, and it's not making really anything. So those are two few of the big problems I see as a practitioner every day.

SPEAKER_01 11:32

Yeah, and uh again, it it has to be right for you. That's really the trick. And that's why we believe in everything being personalized. Even the the uh the stuff we talk about on the show, which is why we love your questions. We love it when you send us questions at talkingrealmoney.com on the ask a question button thing there that's on the screen. Just do that. Type it up, send it in. Uh Tom will read them on the show. Sometimes he'll even call you and talk about it with you. And uh you can also go there and record your question that is used during the Friday QA episode. But today, it's

Young Investor Portfolio

SPEAKER_01 12:09

summer, the quantity has declined slightly. So Tom has one very special type tree killing question.

SPEAKER_00 12:18

Yeah, and the good news is the trees are weaker now because they're getting thirsty, so things are drying out. So this is an easy time to cut them down, take advantage of the pulp making process. Uh so this comes from Anonymous. First name and last name, Anonymous Anonymous. Anonymous Anonymous. Yeah. But uh mentioned the city, Johns Creek, Georgia. I'm not which I'm not familiar with. Don't know it. I know Don's Creek, Georgia, because I've been there many times, but not Johns Creek, Georgia. Um, hi, Don and Tom. I would appreciate your advice regarding my 22-year-old son's current investment allocation and whether any changes would be appropriate for long-term growth. I'll say. He's accumulated savings from internship jobs, which is great, by the way. I was reading the uh market this year. Very tough on young people that are trying to get between school kind of jobs, not easy at all. Um, he recently graduated, will start a full-time job in September. Yay, that's really great. Here are current investments. He has a brokerage account of $10,000, and he has a Roth IRA of $18,500 in the brokerage. Wow. It's 80% uh DFAW and 20% VT.

SPEAKER_01 13:27

Hmm. Interesting. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 13:29

And then in the Roth, it is 25% DFAW. That's dimensionals. Equity, 25% VT, which is the Vanguard total uh global portfolio, and then 50%, so 25 DFAW, 25 VT, and 50% VTI, which I believe is the Vanguard International Fund, right?

SPEAKER_01 13:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:48

Uh I always forget that they always mix that one up because it's got the I in it, and then I think so then I think it's international, and then somebody said, no, no, that's the No, I think that's the U.S.

SPEAKER_01 13:58

Let me just double check. Yeah, that's the U.S. I was pretty sure that was the U.S. So that's the U.S. So he's heavy U.S., heavier large cap U.S. Let me just finish the question.

SPEAKER_00 14:08

Says given his age and investment portfolio, would like to know whether this allocation is appropriate. If there's unnecessary overlap between these funds, I'll say. Whether adjustments could improve diversification or cost efficiency. Any can tax considerations between the brokerage and Roth recommend going strategy going forward for both accounts. So remember, 10,000 in the brokerage, 18,500 for the Rothschild.

SPEAKER_01 14:29

Again, are you not going to quibble? I will. No, don't quibble, really, because one, if you quibble, um he he mentioned expense ratios. So if you quibble, and I know the quibble you're gonna make, expense ratios are gonna go up fractionally. They're gonna go up a little. They are. Uh there is overlap, but but and he's overweighted in because of VT and VTI, U.S. large cap, of course. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_00 14:54

I'm just gonna quibble a bits. Is that okay? A bit. You can quibble a bit. Trevor Burrus, Jr. Quibble and bits, you get that. Anyway, um uh too many funds.

SPEAKER_01 15:03

For $28,000. Yeah. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_00 15:05

It's just it's a lot of work. Uh so and I mean you could just go with DFAW, period. That's what I'm saying. There's kind of a lot of overlap between DFAW and VT, right? Because those are both they both own the United States and and more.

SPEAKER_01 15:17

Um say The only thing you're doing is reducing your expense ratio a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 15:22

Yeah, because VT is in the single digits, right?

SPEAKER_01 15:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:25

DFAW is probably point twenty-four twenty-four, something like that. Um so you so yeah, um I personally, if it was my money, I'd have uh I here's you okay, you really want some diversification? Here you go. I would go A V G E in the brokerage account and DFAW in the Roth. How about that?

unknown 15:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 15:44

Two different companies. You're really diversifying.

SPEAKER_00 15:46

Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_01 15:47

Between Avantis and Dimensional.

SPEAKER_00 15:49

Yeah, because they both love me. Oh, I meant to get and we get nothing from them, okay? Just so you know.

SPEAKER_01 15:54

Oh, I know, but it sure sounds like we do, doesn't it? Uh no, we don't get anything.

SPEAKER_00 15:59

24, I was dead on. Yeah, you know. 24 basis points. So you so you're paying more, uh, and the hope is you're gonna make more, but you know, we don't know that heading forward.

SPEAKER_01 16:07

Well, historically, these asset classes have in the past made more. Oh, look, AVGE is only 23 basis points.

SPEAKER_00 16:16

Oh, two three. How about that? Yeah. So good for you.

SPEAKER_01 16:22

Saving the kid money. Yeah. Uh yeah, no, what a great start, though. Oh, I think it's fabulous. Yeah, eight thousand dollars in your twenties.

SPEAKER_00 16:30

Uh, if you did nothing more and just let that grow in a global portfolio and make ten percent a year, that's a lot of money by the time you're sixty-five. I think in you think in 40 years you should be able to retire at sixty.

SPEAKER_01 16:43

How old is he?

SPEAKER_00 16:44

22.

SPEAKER_01 16:45

22. No, let's say uh it's fifty, let's see, twenty-two.

SPEAKER_00 16:50

Forty five years. So sixty. I would say forty-five years. Yeah. So that's still a pretty hefty amount of um I I'd I'd personally think you're gonna probably have to wait till sixty-eight, sixty-nine in 40 years to retire, but that's my take.

SPEAKER_01 17:05

So I'm doing the math here. Let me just run the numbers here. Oh, you're gonna actually run the number. Over 45 years. Let's assume uh I'm gonna assume a 10% return. Which is historical, but one never knows. Um let's see. That's gonna be a mere uh two million dollars without adding anything.

SPEAKER_00 17:27

And after inflation, it'll be 47 cents. So that's still good because that'll buy you half a piece of gum.

SPEAKER_01 17:33

Listen to the differences. At 8 percent, it's I want Dave Ramsey, then sign me up, please. At 8 percent, it's less than a million. It's about 900,000. No.

SPEAKER_00 17:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 17:41

At 12 percent, it's 4.6 million. All right.

SPEAKER_00 17:45

I'm I'm I'm no offense to you because you know I care about you, but I'm gonna join the Ramsey bunch because 12 is You're going for the 12.

SPEAKER_01 17:52

Way more. That looks better. Plus, I get whatever you want to do. You're an old guy. We expect insanity out of you.

SPEAKER_00 17:58

I can get away with it.

Social Security Crunch

SPEAKER_01 18:00

So uh before we go, we have news that there's a send some news about when Social Security is gonna run out of money. I hate this because it also Well, not money, not all the money, just the trust fund, just the trust.

SPEAKER_00 18:13

So most of the money comes in and goes out the back door. Most. Right. But the trust, right now, if nothing is done, they just move.

SPEAKER_01 18:21

The trust is supplementing the benefits.

SPEAKER_00 18:23

Correct. And if they don't do anything, if they don't fix it anyway, uh, according to a new uh look by the trustees, it'll run out of money in late 2032, which by my calculation is about six years, just in time for me probably to need it.

SPEAKER_01 18:35

Let's do let's here's a little exercise for you. Because right now, Congress and the White House have really shown very little interest in finding a reasonable solution to the problem. And there are really only two solutions to this problem. Two solutions. Two. You only get the choice of two. No, that's one of the two.

SPEAKER_00 19:01

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 19:02

One is raise taxes. Okay?

SPEAKER_00 19:07

Yeah, that's one. Again, let's describe what that is exactly. Hang on, let me give my two first.

SPEAKER_01 19:13

Okay, then you can my two for my kills. Raise taxes to reduce benefits. Those are the only two.

SPEAKER_00 19:21

There's a lot that fits in under both of those. Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 19:24

But but yeah, there are there are uh variations on those themes, but you gotta do one of the two or both of the two in one way or another.

SPEAKER_00 19:33

That's what's gonna end up happening. By the way, you made a great point when we talked about this before we did the program that people now being elected to the U.S. Senate will have to do something about this in this term.

SPEAKER_01 19:45

They will have to do it because they're in there for six years until 2032. Bingo.

SPEAKER_00 19:51

So they're gonna have to um so we're running out of time, in other words. And by the way, I still here's the reason I hate to bring this up because you've we've seen the numbers. More and people go file early when they hear this. They think I better get my money now because it's gonna go away. Right. But think about it just for a moment. The fact that half of people that are retired get the majority of their income from Social Security, right? That's 71 million people are dependent on this. Do you think they're gonna just let something like that go away? I mean, it's gonna say, oh, well, that was that was great while it lasted, but it's not gonna that is so unlikely. So unlikely. Even in politics, they can't make that one fly. So, Don, when he says raising taxes, okay, getting rid of the cap on social security, right now which is now 184,000, I think. If you make anything above that, then you don't pay into the system anymore. If you get rid of that, and it it that fixes it overnight. One, that's gone, that's over. But I personally think it'll be some combination of a slight change there, and probably hate to say it, people don't like it, and it's not gonna be as dramatic as it's been in other countries, but probably moving that 62 starter date maybe to 63 or 64. You gotta wait a little longer. Remember, this was set up in the 1930s, which is coming up on 100 years ago. People are living longer. System's not designed for people to be retired for uh 30 years at all. So probably have to wait a little longer to get your money. That's my guess. But who Yeah, I was right.

SPEAKER_01 21:17

It was $184,500. You're on it today. Um and so that means that every penny over that, you don't pay anything. Yeah. It's and you still pay in Medicare, but that's one of the easiest things to fix because all of us who earn slightly above 184 and we're in that group now. Yes, we are. For most of our life we were not in that group. That's true, too. But now we are. Uh, thankfully. I'm I'm I'm I'm very pleased. But the fact is, for most of the year I am used to seeing that taken out of my paycheck. I am used to living on the net income that I see every two weeks. In my paycheck. I'm used to seeing that.

SPEAKER_00 22:02

Taking out the seven point six.

SPEAKER_01 22:05

Now, when the fall comes and I have surpassed 184, I it's a windfall. That's not all you to take me to lunch. That's the same thing. I was living fine before. So, you know, psychologically, that may be the least painful of all of the options from a psychological standpoint because we already pay it. It's the easiest, it's the simplest. It's it's not from a messaging standpoint because it sounds like raising taxes, but it's just not reducing them at 184. That's my spin. I got a seat for you in the I mean there's no there's no cap on Medicare. Oh, by me by the way, Medicare is teetering on the brink, too. Um Medicare Well, but Medica it just means that those who are on Medicare will have to pay higher premiums. Period. That's just all that means.

SPEAKER_00 23:05

Yep. That's coming.

SPEAKER_01 23:07

Yeah. So there's gotta be a solution. And folks, here's the thing. We know our audience. Yes, some of you are in your 20s and 30s, but you're not the majority, sorry. The majority are 50s, 60s, 70s. You guys, gals, old people, unite. You gotta pester your congresspeople. That's your members of the House of Representatives and your two senators in every state in the Union. They gotta do something, and they've gotta do something really soon.

SPEAKER_00 23:40

Yeah, that's not very long from now. Here's the other thing that we need to pester the young people for. You gotta have more kids. You gotta have more kids. This is demographic.

SPEAKER_01 23:48

Or you've got to get better jobs. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 23:51

Pay in more. This is demographic in a lot of ways because we're not replacing the population enough, so there's not enough people paying in.

unknown 23:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:57

That's part of the problem. There's another political issue hiding under all that, too.

SPEAKER_00 24:02

Fully aware of that, of course.

SPEAKER_01 24:03

Yeah.

unknown 24:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:04

We can't talk about sex on the program.

SPEAKER_01 24:06

No, I wasn't talking about sex. I was talking about immigration.

SPEAKER_00 24:08

Ah, yes. Well, gosh, don't go there, please, because I can't handle cards and letters anywhere.

SPEAKER_01 24:13

Well, no, I'm just saying that, you know, it's not. Shut it down.

SPEAKER_00 24:17

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 24:18

I know. I'm with you. We've got to have more people paying the tax somehow. I don't know how to do it. Unless we're going to just say, hey, China, give us more social oh wait, you don't pay any. Sorry.

unknown 24:28

Don't pay any.

SPEAKER_00 24:29

So no dice. Anyway, so we'll see how it plays out. But it's interesting, as you said, I think you made the best point of the day. People being elected to the U.S. Senate in this particular year will have to face this issue during their term. We'll see what happens.

SPEAKER_01 24:45

No choice. You gotta do it. Or AA the AARP crowd is gonna be mad. And by the way, the AARP crowd already believes. It's like it's only 40% who believe Social Security is gonna last.

SPEAKER_00 25:00

No, I think it's a small number. And by the way, speaking of that crowd, I was given a cane 35 years ago. I still have it, so I'll be prepared to use it. Not sugarcane either.

SPEAKER_01 25:09

So you'll be raising a cane?

SPEAKER_00 25:13

Exactly. And you can count on that too.

SPEAKER_01 25:15

Thank God I live 3,000 miles away from you. Your wife's gonna be embarrassed, not me.

SPEAKER_00 25:22

But it would not be the first time with that either. So we'll be okay

Questions and Help

SPEAKER_00 25:25

there.

SPEAKER_01 25:25

We uh hope you'll send us some questions because we'd have more of them if you did. Go to talkingrealmoney.com, click ask a question, type it in, speak it in. Those get answered on Fridays. And keep listening to the show. Give us your solution to selling printing.

SPEAKER_00 25:39

We'll take that too.

SPEAKER_01 25:40

If you have a solution, why not? I'll hear it.

SPEAKER_00 25:42

Yeah, one.

SPEAKER_01 25:43

I'm telling you, there are only two.

SPEAKER_00 25:44

Okay. It's raise taxes or cut benefits.

SPEAKER_01 25:46

Raise taxes or cut benefits.

SPEAKER_00 25:48

I'd like to see.

SPEAKER_01 25:49

Or the two of them together. Do both.

SPEAKER_00 25:53

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 25:54

Anyway. And if you have a uh portfolio from which you would like to determine the best in way to the best way to get an income stream and the best income stream, yeah, you're pretty good with everything else. You just want a little help? Meet with one of our advisors. They're fiduciaries. They're not gonna charge you anything, they're not gonna pressure you to become a client, promise. They're just gonna help because everybody associated with this program really truly wants to help you be better with your money. And that's why we have for a very long time called this show Talking Real Money.

SPEAKER_02 26:33

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