How Bonds Work

SPEAKER_00 0:05

You're gonna do a really great financial future. Tom and Don are talking real money.

SPEAKER_01 0:12

You know, it's been a long time since we've talked about bonds on Talking Real Money and Bonds. We're not talking about the kind of bonds in Fifty Shades of Gray. No, not those kind of bonds, not bondage, but bond investing.

Bond Market Jitters

SPEAKER_01 0:25

And uh the current bond market is a hot topic on the street. So we're gonna kind of delve into that on today's episode of Talking Real Money. I'm Don McDonald. Thanks so much for joining us. That guy over there in the studio where the walls need a little repainting, that's Tom Cock. Look at the wall behind you.

SPEAKER_02 0:46

I'm just so glad I'm not gonna get tied up.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

Isn't that a relatively new office? How did you gouge the walls like that?

SPEAKER_02 0:53

I believe there was a previous occupant that may have had something to do with that, whom I believe you know who that was. Good question. Probably accurate. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03

Probably this person is no longer here. Welcome to the show. What are we gonna talk about today? Well, we mentioned it. Bond, I mean bonds, bonds, not bonds. No tie-ups here. We're just talking about the security. Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Not the ties that bind the bonds that bind your portfolio. That's what we're gonna talk about. And what bonds are doing lately, they're causing some folks to get a little bit concerned. This comes from an article that I read a couple few weeks ago in the Wall Street Journal about the bond market fluctuating, which, you know, the bond market does kind of fluctuate, but what does it mean? What can you read from the activity in the bond market? Thomas Charles Cock. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_02 1:45

Well, it's fascinating. So in mid-May, I don't know when this airs. I I can't keep track of how you do it magically.

SPEAKER_01 1:53

Will this make you happy if I can't. But it will look different. We do record in advance. This episode, what's I don't even know what the date is. Oh, I know it's a good idea.

SPEAKER_02 2:07

This will be the 21st of May.

SPEAKER_01 2:08

It's gonna air the 11th of June, so it's a while. A long time.

SPEAKER_02 2:13

Uh but in as of mid-May, sorry for the delay there. Um the 30-year Treasury uh had the interest had an interest rate of over five. And the reason people are concerned it's the first time over five since 2007.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

Such a long time ago. Oh no, that was a bad time.

SPEAKER_02 2:33

But yeah, that's the point, right? What came next? Well, recession, unemployment went up, downturn in the stock market. Well, uh you you you for those of you old enough to remember, it was not a happy time. Let's just be honest there. I can remember things about it. Most of us. Yeah, it was not it was not a fun time for me. It's not a fun time for Don. We ended up leaving a company we were working for, starting another company, et cetera, et cetera. We weren't alone, we weren't the only ones, but it was difficult.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

It all worked out. It was it it was it was a it they were the worst of times, they were the

Why Yields Matter

SPEAKER_01 3:06

best of times. Okay, that was a good thing.

SPEAKER_02 3:07

And by the way, no, that's really very important because right now, and and and for those of you just a little basic primer on bonds, right? When when yields increase, right?

SPEAKER_01 3:22

When yields when when yields increase, that means the price of the bond is crawling. That's right. That the price of existing bonds goes down to to provide the new investors with a comparable return to buying a brand new bond in the primary market. So it they bond yields move it uh inverse to bond prices. So if if people are selling bonds, they're getting out of bonds, bond yields will rise for uh the future investors or current investors.

SPEAKER_02 3:55

Trevor Burrus, Jr. And generally, when all that's happening, it portends that people believe higher inflation. We'll get to this, right? About what are the people.

SPEAKER_01 4:06

Yeah, I want to quibble a little, but go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 4:07

Okay. But that but that's a generalization that you know things are going to get more expensive.

SPEAKER_01 4:12

Trevor Burrus, I get it. You're setting the tone.

SPEAKER_02 4:14

And that goes back, of course, to this recent development we've had with much higher energy prices. You may have noticed at the you know places. I noticed that that happened.

SPEAKER_01 4:22

You know, when you bomb an oil-producing country, oil prices go up. I don't understand the the relationship. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_02 4:29

Now it may be, by the way, that things settle in the Middle East soon, although we've been saying that now for just a few months.

SPEAKER_01 4:36

And again, we're we're we're fast forwarding a few weeks, and so we don't know what has happened. And by the way, just an aside, let me explain why that's the case. Yeah. Um we have to get the because this podcast is affiliated with Appella Wealth, it's part of Appella, uh, we have to run these through a compliance process, and that that means we have to be ahead of the curve with our episode.

SPEAKER_02 5:02

It's a pretty involved thing. Okay, fair enough.

SPEAKER_01 5:04

The production, but the other people are like 32.

SPEAKER_02 5:09

18. Don't they just get like a printout of all the words that are said and then have to go through them to see if we say anything bad?

SPEAKER_01 5:15

I don't know. That's what they get. They get a printout of all the words, I think. In in the vernacular, it's called a transcript.

SPEAKER_02 5:23

Oh, that would be the word. Thank you. I really appreciate it. Anyway, the point is so oil, yeah, more expensive, threat of runaway inflation, yeah. And uh all those things play into the bond market. It play in stocks, too, obviously. But the bond market, as you correctly point out, it it moves, and there's a lot of bonds that are traded every day, but rates generally don't go up the way they've gone up recently. We can say that. And it's not just in the United States of America. Uh, Britain, the yield on the long-term bond or guilt. I have a lot of guilt, but I try not to trade it, um, are close to their highest level.

SPEAKER_01 5:59

No, no, no. The guilt they're talking about is the Oval Office kind of guilt.

SPEAKER_02 6:03

Oh, I see. That guilt. That's above my pay grade by several st several groups of people, 32 or whatever we said. Um You're not guilding the lake house? Boy, I'd like to. Uh just give it a quick shove. So, I mean, again, they're they're close to highest levels in 30 years for the long-term bonds. All these things have led to what? Right. Number one, people well, they are bailing out on bonds, right?

SPEAKER_01 6:32

Mm-hmm. Well, there's some selling going on.

SPEAKER_02 6:35

Some selling, pardon me.

SPEAKER_01 6:36

Um, remember, there are buyers on the other side of every one of those. That's correct. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 6:40

Somebody thinks it's reasonable. Um, and there's some people happy to get the you know higher yield for a 30-year bond than they're getting, right? They're long-term players are gonna buy those bonds, they're

Fed Rates and Inflation

SPEAKER_02 6:49

happy to do that. And then there's the worry warts that say um this is going to directly impact the other thing that people have been watching very closely, which are the Federal Reserve and the making of short-term rates, which, as you may know, a few months ago the bet was we were gonna get lower rates. Now, not only we're not appearing is not gonna get lower rates, we may even get the Fed raising rates, which would be interesting because the president just put his new guy in there who I think the pledge was we'll cut rates.

SPEAKER_01 7:18

Because raising short-term rates are considered a tool to contract the the contract the economy a little bit and reduce inflation. It makes it more expensive for companies to borrow money, for banks to borrow money to lend to companies, and therefore that should slow down the economic expansion that fuels inflation. Or that's the theory.

unknown 7:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:43

And and so and you don't have to go back too far, uh, 2022. Inflation, I think, then got all the way up to 9%, I remember right. Um, bonds lost value rapidly. Remember 2022 you actually had stocks and bonds that lost value there, but people have stuck with their bonds and it it all worked out. And this gets to the bottom line of all this. I mean, this is a great article because there's a lot of detail here. It's a fascinating topic around fixed income, because I don't think people spend nearly the time or energy they should because stocks are more interesting. So it's a great read there. But the question on the table is what does it all mean?

SPEAKER_01 8:20

Right. And that's what the article was really focused on was what does it mean? Because we are as a species highly motivated toward future prediction. We want to know what's going to happen. We have these big brains, and those big brains go, well, okay, I know what today is, I know what happened yesterday, but I don't care about those anymore. I want to know what's going to happen tomorrow. And when it comes to our money, that is very important to us. We're looking for the tea leaves. And is there something in the activity in the bond markets that is an indicator that is telling us something about what the future might be? Some people say, well, yeah, it's telling us that this could be the precursor to a uh another 2008 market collapse. And then on the other hand.

SPEAKER_02 9:15

Oh, good d wasn't that uh Harry Truman who once said, I wish I'd an economist with just one hand.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

One hand, yeah. Because on the other hand, maybe they don't go down. Yeah, right. Maybe the stock market means nothing crash. Maybe not.

SPEAKER_02 9:30

Starmer survives in Britain, all this goes away in a few weeks, and oil prices go back down.

SPEAKER_01 9:36

Ha ha. I mean, that could happen. No, that could and has in the past.

SPEAKER_02 9:40

No, I'm ha-hawing at oil prices because who knows if those are gonna go down much ever.

SPEAKER_01 9:44

The reality is we do not know anything about the future. We can't know what's gonna happen. We try to predict. Uh, for example, when the war started with Iran, I heard from a lot of people who said, Well, I gotta get out of stocks. This is bad. The stock market's gonna fall. It went up. I mean, stocks did pretty well. So you can't let this you can't let these ideas, these in these supposed indicators drive your decisions because you're gonna make bad decisions. It still ends up turning you into an emotional investor as opposed to a sensible investor.

unknown 10:24

Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_02 10:24

Yeah, and we know timing doesn't work, right? In other words, you you get out when do you get back in? Uh how are you gonna change your portfolio? What are you gonna move

Why Hold Bonds

SPEAKER_02 10:33

that money to? How's the portfolio gonna change? But I will say this, because this does come up from time to time, that people say, Well, why am I owning bonds at all? I looked at BND, for example. Do you know what the 15-year return on BND is?

SPEAKER_01 10:49

BND, that is the the total bond index from Bandit.

SPEAKER_02 10:55

Annualized rate. Annualized rate. 4 percent, 5 percent. That would be that would be very nice, 2.1 percent. And DFIGX, which is the dimensional intermediate term U.S. government bond, 1.85. So the returns pretty dismal over this period of time. And all that after a really good 2025, where both of those funds made about 7 percent. So you had a good year last year.

SPEAKER_01 11:20

But at the end of the year, well, yeah, 15-year return, that throws it in 2022.

SPEAKER_02 11:25

That's right. Which was very difficult, right? You had double-digit losses for each one of those funds. So again, but why am I owning bonds? Why do I own bonds? Well, for one thing, a bond, and it's the simplest, is a different type of security than a stock. A stock is ownership in a company, a bond is an IOU. So you're just getting another degree of diversification into something else. People say, well, it hasn't been as productive, hasn't made as much money. That's right. That brings me to number two. It's not supposed to. It's supposed to provide stability, which even at 2%, that's been relatively stable other than 2022. So the stability, and here's the other part. If you have a portfolio and you're retired or retiring, you don't want to have all your money and things that go up and down the way stocks have. You want to have something that you can pull from to pay the bills when stocks are down, right? So the money's there fairly stable. You can pull it out, pay the bills, etc. So those are the reasons I think.

SPEAKER_01 12:20

The stock money alone. Exactly. Let it reach out. Not sell at a loss, unless, of course, you're doing some tax loss harvesting.

SPEAKER_02 12:26

Yeah, well, that's a whole other story. But so again, great piece, great discussion around all this, but at the end of the day, it may uh it may turn out to be parlor talk. I don't know. We'll find out here in the years.

SPEAKER_01 12:41

Did you learn anything from the this this piece in the journal about what the market might do? No. No. What do we learn? We learn the the whole point, and that's what we were trying to get to, is that bonds serve a purpose. They just serve a purpose. They're not designed to be indicators or speculative tools or big earning tools. They serve a purpose, and they work in a very simple fashion, really, for the most part. And they belong in most people's portfolios, despite the fact that they're boring

Listener Questions Return

SPEAKER_01 13:13

as heck. Now, we love to take your questions, and uh we really like having conversations with you, but we ran out for a while, so we only have a few questions. So we're just gonna read some of the questions that you guys sent in. But please send more in at talkingrealmoney.com. That's talkingrealmoney.com. Click the button that says ask a question. And then if your question's a little more complex, we'll get you on the show. Tom will have a conversation with you, or I might sometimes. Uh, you can also speak your questions just using the microphone button in the corner. But here's the way we do most of the written ones, and that is Tom asks them, and then together we answer them.

SPEAKER_02 13:52

Uh, so from Hopewell Junction, New York, Chris

Covered Call ETFs

SPEAKER_02 13:56

writes us Hey guys, uh the subject he says is covered call ETFs for generating income in retirement. Love the show. Can you explain what covered call ETFs are, how they work, and how they supposedly generate monthly income. They sound too good to be true. What are the pros and cons of covered call exchange traded funds?

SPEAKER_01 14:18

Um well, first they're expensive as heck.

SPEAKER_02 14:22

Well, expert at first, maybe you should explain. And I oh, I should explain what they do.

SPEAKER_01 14:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:27

I don't understand why people use covered calls, so please explain what they are and why they call the purpose of the case.

SPEAKER_01 14:33

Okay, covered calls, covered call writing is something I used to do when I was a young broker. A lot of young brokers do it because it looks like magic money. It really does. It looks like magic money. You buy a stock.

SPEAKER_02 14:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 14:45

A B C, X, Y, Z, Q R S, whatever it is, T U V. Uh you buy the stock, then you sell someone else the right to buy that stock from you. Sell someone else the right to buy that. A date in the future, within a certain period of time. So you might go out thirty days or sixty days or ninety days. The longer you go out, the more money someone is willing to pay you usually to buy that stock. They're betting it's gonna go up in value, so they're willing to pay you a little premium to lock in a price. So let's say you own the stock, you pay ten dollars a share for the stock.

SPEAKER_02 15:25

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 15:26

And you think this stock is really not gonna go much of anywhere. It's just gonna sit there. That's the kind of stock you want to buy if you're a covered call writer. You want to buy a stock that you really don't expect to move much. So you sell someone the right to buy your stock 90 days from now at $10 a share. And they pay you a dollar. So you made a buck on in 90 days. You get the buck. You get the buck right away. You get a buck. Now, if your stock stays at uh at $10, they're not gonna buy it. You get to keep the dollar. The option expires worthless.

unknown 16:05

Okay?

SPEAKER_01 16:08

Right. The option expires worthless.

SPEAKER_02 16:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 16:10

You can then write another option for another dollar. And then if the stock doesn't move, you keep the dollar. Then you can write another option for another dollar, and you keep the dollar. However, if the stock moves to twenty-two, you have to sell it at ten. So they made the twelve bucks. You got it, not you. That's the downside to covered call writing. The problem is you don't know what direction these darn stocks are gonna go, no matter how do they generate monthly income just on the premiums? The premiums, those premiums. The covered, the covered call or the call premiums that you want to.

SPEAKER_02 16:51

Why is it magic sound like magic money?

SPEAKER_01 16:55

Well, because the yields can be higher than you get on bond funds, quite a bit higher. Sure. Because there's a higher level of risk. You and the and the risk is there are two risks. There's the risk that stock gets called away, and now you only made whatever it was, and you've got to find a new stock to buy. Or on the other hand, the stock plummets. Now you can't sell the stock until you buy back that option. So you're locked in. Because if you keep that out there, you have a naked call now and supposed to a covered call. And you know, this being that this is a show about bondage, you don't want a naked call. Anyway. The problem with these products is they're sounds kind of complicated. It well, that's one of the biggest things. Is that the Trevor Burrus?

SPEAKER_02 17:48

And then you said it sounds kind of expensive.

SPEAKER_01 17:50

Trevor Burrus, Jr. The the well, the funds themselves can be pretty expensive. Uh for example, you can buy a stock fund like VT for what, eight basis points? Eight one hundredths of one percent? Something small. The JP Morgan Premium Income Fund, ETF, is 35 basis points.

unknown 18:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 18:10

So it's quite a bit more than that. The yield on that is uh running right around seven percent.

SPEAKER_02 18:15

Okay. So you're getting quite a bit more than you'd get in a you know bond fund.

SPEAKER_01 18:18

But you've got a higher level of risk because you're in equities. And equities can still go down even if you've got because remember that let's say you got the ten dollar stock and you got a buck for the premium. Sure. Now the stock can fall to nine and you're at break-even. That's right. But if the stock falls to two, you still have the volatility of the stock market. So it only gives you a little bit of protection from volatility. You still have stock market-like volatility with a slight bit of reduction from those call premiums. It's not magic, it's not a panacea. It's it it it is a complex strategy, and I can tell you I did it and it worked pretty well right up until it didn't.

SPEAKER_02 19:02

So you have to pick the right stocks then, isn't it? You do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:06

Yeah. Otherwise, your stock either gets called away or you write it down. And the problem is you're dealing with in smaller, you know, even with a with an ETF, you're dealing with a smaller portfolio. Let me I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 19:21

And while you're doing that, what i i i if the yield is seven, what's the standard deviation? Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_01 19:26

Well, I know that's what I have to look at. Let me look up this JEPI because that's the one I think.

SPEAKER_02 19:30

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: That's the one that we seem to get notes about JEPI from time to time.

SPEAKER_01 19:34

That's the JP Morgan. Morning. Let me look morning.

SPEAKER_02 19:41

It is just one of the bigger ones.

SPEAKER_01 19:42

Yeah. And uh it is uh let me pull up that. Yeah, it's a $45 billion fund. You know, it's still niche. It's a niche kind of category. Uh the standard deviation, I don't know how long this fund's been around. It's been around for a few years. Uh let's go to Yeah, we we don't have a 10-year standard deviation. So standard deviation is like 10. So it's lower than the stock market.

SPEAKER_02 20:10

Yeah. Higher than a bond fund, obviously. Aaron Ross Powell, Jr.

SPEAKER_01 20:13

Which makes sense, but it's much higher than a bond fund. Yeah, sure. Much, much higher than a bond fund. And the portfolio is very limited. It they own a hundred and some odd stocks. And you know, they're the they're the they're blue chips. It's NVIDIA, it's alphabet, it's Broadcom, it's um Amazon, it's Apple, it's you know, but they're they're but what they're trying to find is reasonable stability when they buy their stocks. And as we know, that's hard to do.

SPEAKER_02 20:42

Uh very hard to do. So they have downsides. So again, this is he says this sounds too good to be true. The pros and cons of the pro would be you're gonna it appears you're gonna get a seven percent.

SPEAKER_01 20:54

Yeah, you could. You have the potential to, but in a bad market, right? You could get just almost as killed as a regular stock fund. Almost.

SPEAKER_02 21:07

So this wouldn't be on our list, Chris, just like it's just too complicated.

SPEAKER_01 21:11

I mean, there's no why add more complexity to your portfolio? As a matter of fact, its current three-month yield our sorry, total return, is a negative three and a half percent.

SPEAKER_02 21:22

Yeah. So you that's something

Robert Wagner Mix-Up

SPEAKER_02 21:24

to pay attention to. All right, another area that we don't spend much time on, but uh probably maybe should, apparently, because people pointed out our shortcomings here. John Rice is from Lodi, California, says, Don, longtime podcast listener. No financial question this time, but your May 18th episode, selling slowly. You intimated that Robert Wagner reminded you of the Wild, Wild West TV show.

SPEAKER_01 21:50

I was thinking Robert Conrad.

SPEAKER_02 21:52

You're thinking the old Bob with another Bob, Robert Conrad. Now, if you were discussing floating alone or something, then Robert Conrad. Robert Wagner would be a guy. We're not going to mention the Natalie Wood quote he has here, which is pretty funny. For those of you old enough to remember you, or not, you can type that in on the interweb. Thanks for all of your advice and witticism. Yes, we conflated Mr. Wagner with Mr. Conrad.

SPEAKER_01 22:17

Well, it's because they were both good-looking guys back in the 60s. Yeah. In fact, I I looked it up just because I went, Robert Wagner was in some TV show.

SPEAKER_02 22:28

Wasn't it? It was uh the the spy one, right? Heart to heart. No, he did something before that.

SPEAKER_01 22:34

Oh, It Takes a Thief.

SPEAKER_02 22:36

That's what I was thinking of.

SPEAKER_01 22:37

Yeah, that was early. Heart to Heart was uh where he was a detective with Stephanie Powers. They were married. I didn't watch the show, I just kind of remember it vaguely.

SPEAKER_02 22:48

Wild Wild West, I did watch as a kid.

SPEAKER_01 22:50

I loved Wild Wild West.

SPEAKER_02 22:52

That was a good show. I liked the way it was shot, I liked the way the whole thing's put together. So anyway. Both of them are still alive, apparently, right? No? Wagner, I know, is. Robert Conrad, I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_01 23:02

Isn't Wagner doing like um reverse mortgages or or uh I mean seriously? No, uh Wow Robert Conrad died in 2020. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 23:12

Oh okay. So pardon me. My condolences to the Conrad family for having a few years. Robert Wagner Wagner is still, however, alive. I know he is, because I think he's still under investigation from the Yeah, he they re reopened it a couple years ago. About the Natalie Wood thing. Really? Yes, they did. Oh, okay. I mean you're not up on your entertainment news. No, I am definitely not.

SPEAKER_01 23:36

I I I I even screwed up my old entertainment news.

SPEAKER_02 23:40

You you are up on your Civil War history and you are up on your geography. I'm amazed when you read your book about the number of this town, this has this, this, and this, and I think, how in the heck did he ever figure all that out? So I see you walking the dusty streets of the South.

SPEAKER_01 23:54

If you look in my my house, you will find an an amazing Civil War library. Uh I have I have books from the eighteen sixties uh on the Civil War. Wow. That helps. Yeah, it helps. Good research. By the way, Robert Wa Wagner was known as the uh the number he was rated the number four most memorable reverse mortgage spokesman.

SPEAKER_02 24:24

Okay, then I gotta ask.

SPEAKER_01 24:28

I think so too, but I just pulled up the list.

SPEAKER_02 24:29

Number one, I gotta ask you. Number one. Do you know who number one is? You told me this before. I've already said Tom Sellick. That's it.

SPEAKER_01 24:36

God Wagner was number four. He lost out to to to Fonzi. Henry Winkler was a better one.

SPEAKER_02 24:46

That doesn't that's not the quality of the pitch, that's how much they got paid.

SPEAKER_01 24:50

No, that's how memorable their commercial is.

SPEAKER_02 24:52

Oh, I see. So it is the quality of the Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:54

Now Fred Thompson, he was number two. Fred did well. He's been dead for 20 years, so but he did well when he was alive. And that's all we can that's all we can hope for as human beings to do well while we're alive, to make a top ten list or a top five list somewhere for something. And these guys could be proud of the fact that they are considered some of the top reverse mortgage spokespeople in the world.

SPEAKER_02 25:19

That means we're headed downhill because in two thousand we were we were part of the top money podcast according to Money Magazine.

SPEAKER_01 25:27

And back in the day. Yeah, we're 2008.

SPEAKER_02 25:31

That's what I'm saying. So it's been straight

Show Wrap-Up

SPEAKER_02 25:34

downhill from there. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_01 25:35

Anyway. All right, we're done. Thanks for being a part of the program. We all appreciate you very much. And we hope you'll tell friends or two or ten or a hundred if you've got a hundred.

SPEAKER_02 25:44

Don't tell Wagner, because he might want me to go on his boat with him.

SPEAKER_01 25:47

Well, he may listen. You don't know that he doesn't listen.

SPEAKER_02 25:49

I'm just saying. I was kidding about the boat, Bobby. It's okay. Bad joke.

SPEAKER_01 25:53

He's probably not listening anymore after that, but probably got questions? Send him into talkingrealmoney.com. Want to meet with one of our lovely fiduciary advisors and not pay anything? You can do that too, and you won't get a high-pressure sales pitch. That's a promise from me and Tom. Cross our hearts, hope to die. I don't like that stick and needle in my eye part. I never understood that. That was very gruesome.

SPEAKER_02 26:16

I've I've had that happen. You know that, right?

SPEAKER_01 26:17

I actually know, but that was for medical purposes. Yes, it was. Not just not fun either. Because you lied. No.

SPEAKER_02 26:24

Well, maybe in the bigger picture, who knows?

SPEAKER_01 26:27

But go to our new talkingreal money.com website. It's it's lovely and simple. Thank you all for listening. We appreciate you sticking around as we ramble on about stupid stuff and our talking real money.

SPEAKER_00 26:42

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