Chasing Returns, Catching Losses

SPEAKER_00 0:05

We're gonna do a really great financial future. Tom and Don are talking real money.

SPEAKER_01 0:20

One of Tom's favorite adages in the wonderful wacky world of money is only buy the stocks that go up. Only buy

Hot Stocks and Investor Behavior

SPEAKER_01 0:31

the good ones. And boy, you many of you tend to still follow that silly adage. You want to buy what's hot. Of course you do, because the hot things are the ones that make money. So how do you know what's hot? Well, your version seems intuitive, but it's really pretty much counterintuitive. Buying the things that have gone up means you're late to the party. The trick is to buy the things that are going to go up before they go up, but there's a problem with that. You don't know which ones they're gonna be. So does it make sense to buy what's hot? Jason Zweig, our buddy over at the Wall Street Journal, looked into this not too long ago, and he came to a conclusion that I think you'll find sensible.

SPEAKER_03 1:23

This is a topic that we have covered uh several times. Uh what we're talking about is the what they call the gap, the uh behavior gap, the mind the gap. Isn't that what they say when you get on the subway or in the tunnel?

SPEAKER_01 1:38

That's the uh the underground in England.

SPEAKER_03 1:41

Yeah, the underground. Yeah, so I and this is again, and this comes to mind, I think, for Jason, because uh just another example right in everybody's face that I hope will wake you up and and help you from making the same mistake. And it just turns out that the and and I'm gonna use huge air quotes here, that the investment, which I don't think it is an investment, I think it's a pure speculation, is in Bitcoin. And uh they've gone back and Oh, you're gonna do it again.

SPEAKER_01 2:10

You're gonna think it's not necessarily about Bitcoin. You're okay, but it doesn't matter. You said the word. Here come the lower. Now the reviews come in. You guys just don't get it. I'm sorry, this is not us. This is Jason Zweig at the Wall Street Journal, dudes.

SPEAKER_03 2:26

Yeah, and and he makes it I love this line. He says, uh investors keep chasing performance, but they never seem to catch it. And then he later says they uh they pursue pleasure and flee pain. Well, don't we all do that? I mean, that's a no-brainer. But uh so he went, they won't back and look at the actual performance of investors, not when you look at a fund that says, we make 12% a year. How much do the investors actually make?

SPEAKER_01 2:52

This is the number that uh uh a lot of people have been looking at. Uh it's called investor returns. Morningstar has used these numbers. Uh Dal Dalbard? Yeah, Dalbard. Yeah, Dalbard was famous for this. It's the difference between what the investments themselves make and what you make because of your behavior. I just want to clear up what that is.

SPEAKER_03 3:14

And in this case, as I said, the history is recent because they went back and looked at Bitcoin ETFs. Now, Bitcoin was trading at about $46,000 when a dozen ETFs were launched on January 11th, 2024. Again, this is very recent history. As of this year, on June 30th, Bitcoin trading at 58. So it sounds pretty good, right? You just bought then and the funds made you a lot of money, right?

SPEAKER_02 3:39

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 3:40

No. Um, this is fascinating. In aggregate, the investors in the original cohort of Bitcoin funds lost an average of 5.8% a year.

SPEAKER_01 3:52

Okay, please pause there. Yeah, please pause there at that 5.8 because here's people are going, well, wait, wait. Bitcoin made money, went from 45 to 58. Yep, exactly. And yet the average investors lost money.

unknown 4:07

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

We need to explain again. This is because of behavior, not the underlying asset. Buying when it's hot, selling when it's not.

SPEAKER_03 4:15

Yeah, and the point is people poured money into this from October 2024 through January 2025, as Bitcoin went straight up to 100,000, 20 billion went into those ETFs. And then when Bitcoin went down, what did people do? Oh, they sold the funds, pulled out $3.5 billion, uh, and then another 57. You this happens over and repeat if necessary. Um, from November 2025 through this May Bitcoin price collapsed. People yanked $6 billion out of those ETFs. The market pulled back. There was aggressive selling. Again, this is something that we have chatted about a lot. And this is not the first time by a long shot. Um and this is something that you need to be aware of because it's simply part of your overall emotional makeup. Don, you kind of tease people at the beginning, but the fact of the matter is, and this happens all the time. I talk to people regularly who say, Well, I want to own that because that's been good. And as you point out, you need to own a big thing.

SPEAKER_01 5:18

Well, that's going up. That's going up. It's a problem with tense. We have a language issue. We confuse our tenses. Nothing is going up. It has only gone up. There is no, when it comes to investing, there is no present tense. None. Because the present, you haven't seen the present yet. You can't see the present in the stock market because there's a delay in the reporting. So what is going up or down right now, you won't know until it's gone up or down soon, or long time from now. I don't know.

Mind the Behavior Gap

SPEAKER_03 5:56

Exactly. And so it Morningstar does this survey, does this work called Mind the Gap. Now, according to Morningstar, investors leave about 15% a year of potential gains on the table, with investors uh like making 1.2% less per year than funds they own. By the way, guess where the biggest losses come? Which type of funds do people have a tendency to underproduce? Sector funds, right?

SPEAKER_01 6:23

I mean, all the following trends.

SPEAKER_03 6:27

It is. Yeah. These are all great ideas that don't turn out so well. So what about this year? Uh what do you think the money's gone into this year? Well, a lot's gone into the S P 500. Okay, because it's I think I know the answer. Pretty good. What you're raising your hand there in the back, so what do you say?

SPEAKER_01 6:43

Oh, oh, I say AI.

SPEAKER_03 6:45

Yeah, that's been the big theme. How did I know that? A fund called DRAM has added 20 billion. Money's poured into South Korea, which is up over 100 percent, by the way, over the last year.

SPEAKER_01 6:56

What does South Korea make a lot of?

SPEAKER_03 6:59

Yeah. You're guessing Taiwan chips. Taiwan, which was like the number seventh largest market in the world, is now number three by market capitalization. People have run those up. So again, and I I'm laughing, but we discussed this recently about your book, too. This is not the first time. People piled into what? Technology in 2000 after it had gone up in the late 90s. People piled into real estate in the mid-2000s and the mid-aughts because that went up a lot. This has happened

Past Tense Investing Rules

SPEAKER_03 7:31

many, many times. But I think there's an easy way to avoid it. You you mentioned one thing, which I think is absolutely imperative. Uh, you you can't mention what's going on today. Everything when it comes to investing has to be past tense. So just something is done so well right to this moment doesn't mean it's going to continue in the future. Part two, this is so easy to me. The people that have an asset allocation, that is, they have a stock-to-bond ratio. That is, they own the globe when it comes to stocks. This has they don't face this issue at all because they don't buy and sell. They don't get involved in things that are hot or recent or have to own. They have an asset allocation, not a series of ideas. The people that own Bitcoin ETFs, well, that's a great idea. That's a great narrative, right? And today, the people that are buying South Korea or buying chips, all that stuff, those are ideas. They are not an asset allocation. But if you have to, I think Jason even mentioned this, if you really just have the urge, because we had people calling us about the SpaceX IPO too, and we had to tell them no, which I don't like telling people, but we told a lot of people no, that's a bad idea. But if you really have to do it, gosh, and I hate this expression because I don't have it in my life, but I guess you could have play money, some little bit amount that you can put in there and you could get up every morning and watch it. And then the third part for me to fix all this for you is you gotta figure out a way to ignore the popular press. All the stuff, if you go to CNBC and you Michael Blurry says to own this, and Jim Kramer says you got to do this today, those are ideas. Those are not a way to build a correctly balanced portfolio. And that's really where the problem starts. And those are the people that end up buying Bitcoin at the high and then selling it at the low. Repeat, as I said, if necessary.

SPEAKER_01 9:23

Again, it pays to be a little counterintuitive and counter-logical because those who try to win generally fail. Those who don't try to win just do as well as the market tend to tend to do a lot better than the aggregate of those who try to win. You Yes, yes, yes. There are anecdotal tales of people getting rich on these bets on various stocks and sectors. Absolutely. They it happens. But we know it doesn't happen to most. And if you are pursuing that winning strategy that ends up for most being a losing strategy, how are you any different than a someone who's addicted to the lottery or going to the casino? How are you any different? You're not. Just because you think you're smarter doesn't make you smarter. Question time here at Talk Two.

SPEAKER_03 10:29

Oh, we've got a lot of questions. We have so many questions. Thank you, by the way, for doing this.

SPEAKER_01 10:34

People responded to your treaties.

SPEAKER_03 10:36

I'm going to apologize for the other. Okay, they're not.

SPEAKER_01 10:38

They're from well, they were from right at the beginning of your vacation.

SPEAKER_03 10:42

No, some of these go back to May. Remember, we've got a big pile that we're stuck on somebody's desk or something.

SPEAKER_01 10:47

Oh, or stuck in the computer or something.

SPEAKER_03 10:48

I don't know where that I have no idea how the pipeline works here, but uh they were there and I feel bad. So we're trying to get to some of those. So let's go to them. Tia from Long Beach, California says, hello, Don and Tom. I enjoy the show. I hope you're I heard I heard heard rather your light on questions. I hear. No, no, she wrote it correctly. I hear you're light on questions during summer, so I'm finally writing.

SPEAKER_01 11:10

She just made a new word. I hear it.

SPEAKER_03 11:13

Yeah.

Retirement Withdrawal Strategy

SPEAKER_03 11:14

Uh I'm four years away from retirement from a public service job. I'll have access to a 403B thanks to the rule of 55, as well as access to the 457. Now, both of these are retirement plans, usually for people in public service types of jobs. Most of the funds in both accounts are pre-taxed. Remember, pre-tax money in the 403B, pre-tax money in a 457. Got it. Tia says, per my accountant's recommendation, I started doing all Roth contributions this year. So all contributions for the last four years will be Roth 457, Roth 403B. I've also maxed out a Roth IRA for 15 years. Wow, good for you, Tia. And I have taxable accounts to fund Roth conversions or whatever else comes up. Here's the part about the planning. My pension will cover basic expenses with a cola for life. I think that's a cost of living increase, not a drink.

SPEAKER_01 12:10

I was going to say it either either way, it's a good thing.

SPEAKER_03 12:13

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 12:13

It's refreshing.

SPEAKER_03 12:16

I'm thinking of withdrawing funds from the 457 pre-tax upon retirement to bridge the gap until Social Security starting at age 70. And for discretionary spending, uh, if I spend some of these pre-tax funds, I'll need fewer Roth conversions. Does it matter? Here's the question. Does it matter if I draw down the 403B or 457 first?

SPEAKER_01 12:41

No. It's the same as doing a Roth conversion. It's the same tax bill.

SPEAKER_03 12:46

But she then adds, I can also use the taxable accounts, but there are considerable long-term capital gains. Yeah, but those should be at a tax rate lower than what you'd be paying in income tax on the 457 and 403B.

SPEAKER_01 13:00

Right. You're going to have to pay in. Again, yeah, generally, because we have to paint in broad, broad, broad strokes for a mass audience. There may be specific reasons why it's better to do something else. But our general rule is for distributions in retirement, start with the taxable account, take those gains because the tax rate is lower. You continue to defer the tax at the taxes in the pre-tax accounts, and you continue to let those Roth accounts grow tax-free. So start with the taxable, then to the to the pre-tax, then to the post-tax.

SPEAKER_03 13:45

And by the way, it doesn't have to be a binary decision. You could do some of each. Again, play with the three.

SPEAKER_01 13:51

Is that a tertiary decision?

SPEAKER_03 13:54

But you could say, I want to keep my tax rate at X, whatever it is. I don't know how much your pension, all that kind of thing. So I don't want to mess with it, so I'm going to take a little bit from my pre-tax, a little bit from my Okay.

SPEAKER_01 14:05

So you're implying it might be a good idea to do some tax planning in a case.

SPEAKER_03 14:10

Huge, huge, huge decision there. Said you've got an accountant. Accountants tend to look back, not forward, so you may need a planner to do some of the tax planning. But yes, in your case, I think it makes a great deal of sense. So but thank you for the great question. Congratulations on your upcoming retirement. Four years. Four years. So I'm going to last four years.

SPEAKER_01 14:28

Well, that's about what I'm thinking about mine. Four years, four plus.

SPEAKER_03 14:33

Actually, after going on vacation, I think four weeks, I get back.

SPEAKER_01 14:36

Oh, you did you really? Really? You liked it? You did you work the whole time.

SPEAKER_03 14:40

I know, and I'm just one of those people. It doesn't, if I'm there, I'd rather be here. If I'm here, I'd rather be there. And I got to get over myself. I get it.

SPEAKER_01 14:46

So you're like me, you just get bored easily.

SPEAKER_03 14:49

I just want to.

SPEAKER_01 14:50

I get bored, then I go, I gotta go do another podcast.

SPEAKER_03 14:53

Great books, too, but I read they were wonderful. All right. Uh Jeff from Del Rio, Texas. Hey, Don and Tom, I'm a factor believer and doing my best to be a hands-off K-I-S-S investor. Does that mean you're affectionate to the people that run the funds, or what's that mean exactly?

SPEAKER_01 15:10

That's not allowed anymore. You're not allowed to be affectionate to your fund people.

SPEAKER_03 15:13

The line is drawn there now.

SPEAKER_01 15:15

And I don't know what he's kissing, but no, he's that's keeping it simple, stupid.

SPEAKER_03 15:19

Ah, you had to tell me that. So I'm sorry. Apologize. Um he says he's almost completely in A V G E, which is the Avantis Global Equity Fund. Very good fund.

SPEAKER_01 15:29

That's great, even though we don't get a penny from Avantis

Reinsurance Risks and Fees

SPEAKER_01 15:31

for saying that.

SPEAKER_03 15:32

Oh, we'll get into that. That's the next question.

SPEAKER_01 15:33

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03 15:34

Besides you too and Paul Merriman, I've been listening to Larry Swedro, and he talks a lot about alternative investments. Oh, Larry. I heard you two talk about the drawbacks of private equity, and I'm not interested in Tom's favorite gold or Don's favorite Bitcoin, but rather reinsurance. It seems like the biggest issue is the expense ratio. Can you talk about the pros and cons of investments like reinsurance and the companies like Stone Ridge that offer them?

SPEAKER_01 16:01

So, okay, but first is reinsurance. There's so many places to go with this.

SPEAKER_03 16:06

Okay, but let's talk about what reinsurance is first. Obviously, if you have a policy through a large insurance company, let's just say State Farm, for example, and State Farm has a certain number of reserves, so if something bad happens, they can pay out all the policies, et cetera. However, there is insurance on insurance people may not be aware of. There are companies that that insure those comp, et cetera, et cetera, that go bigger. And you can actually invest in those companies, in those policies. I remember when I first learned about this, what, 25 years ago, I didn't even know about it. But um, you can invest in those things. And yes, Stone Ridge, for example, has a reinsurance fund, I believe, of some kind.

SPEAKER_01 16:47

Yeah, the the Stone Ridge High Yield Reinsurance Risk Premium Fund Class M.

SPEAKER_03 16:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:52

And um, hmm. Okay, let's talk about it for a minute. Okay. Let's let's I know it's supposed to be it's supposed to be a non-correlating asset class. Yeah. It's different. It zigs when stocks zag. Okay, that's nice. But what's your ultimate goal? Well, that okay, I wasn't even gonna get to that one yet. Okay, that there we there's what the biggest risk with reinsurance is that they've calculated all the risk factors, they've done their math, and we get the first category seven hurricane that runs from Miami. I I I this is a this is a uh a dystopian movie plot, okay? It starts in Miami and it runs right along the East Coast, all the way up the coast, and then it it along the way it hits all of those little coastal cities, and then it gets to Washington, D.C. and Baltimore and New York. And it doesn't just cause billions of dollars of damage, it causes trillions of dollars of damage. Uh have insurance companies ever been surprised by big bills? Hi, I live in Florida. We're the poster child for that. Um that's the biggest risk. But let's just talk about the little risks. Let's just talk about this is the stuff that I don't like Larry not addressing more. One. Stone Ridge is one of the few places where you can get one of these funds. The expense ratio. I love seeing Tom Blanche at this. You ready? How much? 1.84%. Okay? Now, if they were making buckets of money, maybe, but even then we would probably say no, because we think that a a a high expense ratio is a real problem. But their 10-year average annual return, and they haven't been around much more than that, is six and a half percent. So you're talking about twenty-five percent of the fund's return goes to pay for the operation of the fund. And the fund, by the way, has been relatively volatile. So it's not it hasn't been I mean, it i it's had it has a low standard deviation like bonds.

SPEAKER_03 19:15

What's the payout? Does it have a does it have a regular income feature to it?

SPEAKER_01 19:21

Uh S I I you know the problem with Morningstar is they've hidden that now. Uh yeah because yields are so complicated these days. That they are. Um Hold on, I'm gonna find that.

SPEAKER_03 19:34

I mean, the other while you're doing that, I guess the other thing to me, Jeff, would be what it's going to replace in your portfolio. In other words, where is it gonna what's it gonna hold? Is this gonna be the fixed income portion? Is this going to be a stock add-on? Where are you gonna position this? What percentage of the portfolio is it going to make up?

SPEAKER_01 19:53

And um And I'm sorry, I've argued this with Larry. I still don't get the why. I truly don't get the why.

SPEAKER_03 20:01

Again, is this something you really want, or is this something you actually need, would be my question.

SPEAKER_01 20:08

I don't I I don't think so. I don't think so. I mean, and here's the thing is and there here's where the volatility kind of shows up. The one-year return for this fund has been 14. The 10-year average annual return, though, has been six and a half. So that's a big swing in there. Uh and it shows you've had some years where even this fund has has returned as a matter of fact, from 2017 to 2022, this fund barely got out of its own way. It barely broke even.

SPEAKER_03 20:42

Is it still small?

SPEAKER_01 20:44

Uh yeah, it's small.

unknown 20:46

Hold on.

SPEAKER_01 20:47

Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_03 20:47

No, it's not that small four point six billion. Is this this is something, again, and and no offense to any of you, but this is something that sounds like advisors are going to use, and I'm not sure individuals should own this. I I just it feels risky to me. I know Larry's gonna argue with me, and he'll say that.

SPEAKER_01 21:04

And Larry will argue, but but the fact of the matter is I I truly do not feel comfortable suggesting anyone put this in their portfolio, one because of the complexity, but those high I cannot get past those high fees. I cannot do it. Almost 10%. Yeah, we've had this argument with some of the other alternative companies out there. Yep. And we we said no, we're not using your products. They're too expensive. Well, they're high costs to doing it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sounds good.

SPEAKER_03 21:33

Again, I don't know it's something that you need. That's not enough.

The Annuity Commission Debate

SPEAKER_03 21:36

That would be my other take. All right. Final question from Piqua, Ohio, Fred. After listening to the June 15th, 2026 podcast, I was wondering if you were preparing to start selling annuities for a Pella.

SPEAKER_02 21:52

Hmm.

SPEAKER_03 21:52

Uh I'm just gonna go ahead and put it right out there. I don't know about Don, but the answer for me is no. I'm I'm not getting in the annuity business. Uh but I'll let Mr. McDonald answer.

SPEAKER_01 22:05

And those commissions are pretty darn detractive.

SPEAKER_03 22:08

You imagine had we done that? Had we done that? Had we done that, we'd have to do that.

SPEAKER_01 22:13

Oh, Tom, we would be so wealthy. June fifth mistakes. Let me ask you a question while looking it up.

SPEAKER_03 22:19

Okay. The reason for the question is when you took up the topic, if the two of you were paid for endorsing Avantis, Dimensional or Vanguard at 1420 into the podcast. Part of your justification came straight from the annuity playbook. At 1945 into the podcast, you stated that, quote, we don't get anything from them.

SPEAKER_01 22:39

I know where this is going.

SPEAKER_03 22:40

Our entire compos compensation comes from Apella Wealth. And then he goes on. Isn't that what annuity sellers say as well while their company passes the eight to ten commission on they receive to the seller? If this is what happens with the funds, Apella and you, I don't believe so, but it just sounded like the sales pitch from the annuity sellers just made it.

SPEAKER_01 23:00

It does. It does. That's the problem with that's the problem with denying.

SPEAKER_04 23:05

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 23:06

It sounds like so many people deny it it it sounds like sort of the political situation where we've got all these guys doing all this these bad behaviors on both sides of the aisle. Okay, we just had a Democrat who was an idiot with his personal behavior, and everybody denies. So what's the truth?

SPEAKER_04 23:29

Well we don't get anything from these guys.

SPEAKER_01 23:32

We don't, we don't, and it sounds like a Shakespearean line. But the reality is we don't. And I guess I guess the best way to um to show you that we are sincere is for you to look back at um the uh the previous 1900 and some odd episodes of Talking Real Money and check it out. We tend not to lie. At least we really we don't lie intentionally, we might make mistakes, but we we we have a really good long-term track record of tending to tell the truth. Insurance agents don't. Don't Fred Yes, Fred, Fred Just trust us, okay? Oh yeah, that's what the insurance agents say. I know.

SPEAKER_03 24:22

Last time I heard that, I ended up with a new child, a dog, a house I couldn't afford. I've learned my lesson. I'm not buying that anymore.

SPEAKER_04 24:29

But anyway, so Fred, thank you for that. It's a great line. You just we don't get anything from anybody else.

SPEAKER_01 24:36

We do protest too much.

SPEAKER_04 24:38

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 24:39

Great question, though. And thank you for listening and thank you for writing, taking the time.

SPEAKER_01 24:42

Thank you for all the questions and keep sending them in at talkingrealmoney.com on the ask a question button or speak them using the microphone in the lower right hand corner of that screen, and those end up going. Here's the nice thing about the speaking questions. You know where the answers will be given. They'll be given on the Friday QA podcast every single week. And we've been getting a lot of those questions too. So what we're doing. I mean, if they keep coming in at this clip, we could eventually have a 10 question Friday podcast that literally runs for 22 hours.

SPEAKER_03 25:13

And then would that make up the whole four years and then you're done? Would that be it right there? That would be a good idea.

SPEAKER_01 25:18

No, see, that's the problem. It's not hours, it's the days served. It's time served.

SPEAKER_04 25:25

That pretty much says everything you need to do.

SPEAKER_01 25:27

And I don't get time off for good behavior either.

SPEAKER_04 25:29

Never happens.

SPEAKER_01 25:30

So keep sending those in. If you do want to talk with an advisor who will tell you that they don't get a commission and you're gonna you're just gonna have to trust them. If you want to meet with one for free, they're not gonna charge you anything. And I know that sounds like a lie, but it isn't.

SPEAKER_04 25:46

Just trust us, friend.

SPEAKER_01 25:47

Go to talkingrealmoney.com and click on meet an advisor. You can even meet with Tom, and he's the biggest liar of them all.

SPEAKER_03 25:53

Just trust me, friend.

SPEAKER_04 25:54

Really. Just trust me.

SPEAKER_01 25:56

Is that a face that would lie to you? Well, good thing you can't see it. It's a podcast.

SPEAKER_04 26:00

Not from this guy, but maybe.

SPEAKER_01 26:02

All right. Take good care of yourselves. We'll talk to you again on the morrow, unless no, this isn't a Friday. So yeah, we'll talk to you again tomorrow on this podcast channel as we continue our quest to be uh, well, talking real money.

SPEAKER_00 26:20

The opinions and views expressed on this podcast were current on the date recorded. Opinions, estimates, forecasts, and statements of financial market trends that are based on current market conditions constitute our judgment and our subjects change without notice, including any forward-looking estimates or statements which are based on certain expectations and assumptions. Although information and opinions given have been obtained from or based on sources believed to be reliable, no warranty or representation is made as to their correctness, completeness, or accuracy. Information presented on the podcast is not personalized investment advice from Apello Well. The views and strategies described may not be suitable for everyone. This podcast does not identify all the risks, direct or indirect, or other considerations which might be material to you when entering any financial transaction. Past performance does not guarantee feature results, and profitable results cannot be guaranteed. We hope you realize that the information provided on Talking Real Money is for informational, educational, and hopefully enjoyable purposes only. The podcast is not trying to get you to buy or sell any financial products or securities. Instead, the program is provided as a public service by Appello Wealth, a fee-only registered investment advisor. Please see Appello Wealth ADB Part 2A on our website for information regarding Appello's fees and services. Apollo Capital, LLC DBA Appello Wealth, is an investment advisory firm registered with the Securities and Exchange Commission. The firm only transacts business in the states where it is properly registered or excluded or exempt from registration requirements. Registration with the SEC or any state securities authority does not imply a certain level of skill or training. Apello does not provide tax or legal advice, and nothing either stated or implied here should be inferred as providing such advice. Thanks for listening, and please visit talkingrealmoney.com for more information and important disclosure related to performance of any specific index or fund quoted in this podcast.