Ep. 1979: Bonds Help You Sleep

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Monking around on Talking Real Money. Monking. Get it?

Bond Market Woes

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Hi, everybody. Welcome to Talking Real Money, the podcast. Don McDonald here, Tom Cock over there in the Model Military Aircraft Museum. Lovely as it is, it's still not quite the same as the old one.

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I'm just never going to live that down. It's not as there were more planes. There was more room. Um and I'd be like, The hall behind you there.

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You could go in there.

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You know, I found out that during the summer months, I just don't spend much time out there at the workbench working on the next model because I'd rather be outside. So now that we're heading into the world. I know. So but now I'll be spending more time. So I'll there's a German plane out there I've been working on. Tom's Lakeside Lodge. I know.

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Lakeside Lodge. So glad you're here. This is Talking Real Money, the podcast that tries to make money make more sense than it does on most of them. There are a few good ones out there, but most of them. They're trying to convince you to do something that probably makes them a lot of money. Which is the American way. I'm not denigrating it. It's just that's probably what they're doing. Capitalism, baby. It's capitalism. There has been lately, I gotta tell you, there's been a lot of uh to-do, much to-do about bonds. And that's in large part because Well, for some reason, we get more upset about bonds than we do about stocks, it appears. I I interest rates at the long end of the spectrum have been rising because of the U.S. budget deficit. We have a huge, huge debt now of trading taxes. There are all kinds of reasons why people um bid up or down the vo the value of bonds. And right now they're bidding down the value of bonds to get a to get a higher yield. The reason let's start here. Bond yields move in the opposite direction of bond prices. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

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But you should explain why that is, by the way. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

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Because investors want, if if investors fear the ability of the bond makers, the people who issue the bonds, like the U.S. or a company, if they worry more about that issuer's ability to pay back the bonds, they demand a higher interest rate in return for that higher perceived risk. So to get on old treasuries to get a higher interest rate, there's only one way to do it. If you're buying an old treasury, you pay less for it. Yeah. So you make a little bit of money when you sell it at face value down the road. That is the yield to maturity, as it's called. Uh there's a coupon yield, that's the stated yield. Bond comes out at 4%, that's the coupon yield. If you're buying a bond at a discount like $900 on a thousand, then its yield to maturity will be five something.

SPEAKER_03 3:28

Yeah, and today, if you're going to buy a 30-year U.S. Treasury bond, the interest is somewhere around 5.1, 5.2%, right? It's it's gone up a bit. And that's created actually.

SPEAKER_02 3:41

Yeah, that's really you that's the way it's supposed to be. Long bonds generally yield more than short bonds because they're riskier. They're riskier to own over a long period of time. But it's been funny. We've been in an inverse yield curve for such a long time where short bonds were yielding more than long bonds. Now we're getting back to more of a normal yield curve. But when we get to a more normal yield curve where the rates are higher at the long end, then that means longer-term bonds have have to decline in value to make that yield up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:14

Okay. So all of this, that's a great explanation, by the way. All of this has meant that uh the bond market, right? The bond funds, which most of us own, have gone down in value. Uh in fact, one day I think it was um it was half a percent in one day, which is pretty substantial in the bond market. That's when I started getting a few of the calls.

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Yeah. And and again, that's significant in the bond market. I mean, in the stock market, you can have like 12% in a day.

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We'll get that in a minute. Yeah.

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But uh the the the bond market is it tends to be relatively stable. By the way, Tom, the yield currently on the when I when we recorded this, which is about a week ago, um, the the yield was five and a quarter percent. Okay. I was close. On 30 years.

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But if you want to, if if you if you want to loan money to somebody like, I don't know, Argentina or you are obsessed with Argentina.

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I don't know why. Well, I think it's just a soccer thing.

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You know, I'll pick on somebody else. I don't know, it's a pretty messy bond market. Oh, that was good. I gotta you gotta look that one up, ladies and gentlemen. Uh but while you're doing that, while you're looking up what the yield would be there, what it what what what the interest rate I would get there, uh I want to thank our friend Christine Benz. She wrote this piece in Morningstar recently that headlines if you're worried about your bond portfolio, you're missing the point. Yes. And she just nailed it. Absolutely 100%. Christine, thank you. By the way, for those of you who don't know, she was part of Retirement this year, and you can go see her online at uh, I think it's YouTube.

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And she does great work at Morningstar

Why Bonds Still Matter

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and in her books.

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Really good. And and so she very clearly points out, yes, bonds did the bond market index funds were down a half a percent uh on September 1st. She also points out, yeah, in 2022, I think Don mentioned recently that uh the the typical intermediate term bond fund lost 13 percent. If your longer-term treasury bonds, you lost like 30 percent, right? It was bad time. But she gets to the gist of the matter. Why do you hold bonds? Because if if you go back and just held stocks for the last hundred years, you made more money.

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Right, but your worst year would have been uh 56% return. Yeah.

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56% decline. Stocks are the growth engine, as she points out. Bonds and cash are the sleep at night portion of your portfolio designed to hold their value or lose just a bit when stocks are down. Um, she spends a little time talking about the types of bonds. You've heard us spend time on this. Yeah, primarily I do like U.S. government debt. Yeah, I want to have a little bit of corporate debt in there. I don't want to get beyond about 10 years if I can help it. Um But the point of the matter is you're giving up some return to allow you to sleep better. But then the thing she doesn't mention, which I think is important. If you're in the drawdown stages in your life, if you're getting ready to live off the money or you already are, the bond portion can be there to draw on while stocks go down. And I know, yes, stocks never go down, just like real estate never goes down. Um, they will at some point, all joking aside. So they're there for you could pull from that for a long time while stocks went down for a period of time. It's it's it's a part of the the mix that people forget about.

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And one of the magical things we also forget about with bonds is that when your bond has a coupon yield of, let's say, four percent, that allows your bond fund to decline four percent without you suffering any kind of a capital loss. Thank you. That adds to the additional stability. And when we look back at the long-term track record, for not for long-term bonds. We do not like long-term bonds. Let's make that distinction. Long-term bonds perform too much like stocks to make them a good hedge. They're as we as Tom just said, 30 percent decline for long-term bonds versus a 13 percent decline for BND, which is an is an intermediate-term bond fund, generally. Yeah. So you got 13 percent worst case ever, ever in history versus worst case for stocks fifty-six.

SPEAKER_03 8:40

Yeah. There's no comparison. There is no comparison. But here's the thing that she points out that I think this is true of anything you own. She writes, finally, a persistent misconception with bonds is that this is a reasonable spot to be tactical. What she's talking about here is this is a reasonable time to get out of bonds and into something else. Right. As she writes, even as investors seem to have come around to not timing their entrance and exit from stocks, and good for you. I've often heard from financial advisors and individual investors who are inclined to make tactical moves, shifting into shorter-term bonds or even cash when it appears higher rates are in the offing, or backing into longer duration bonds when they think yields are at a high water mark. Her advice get out of the timing business. Um, most professional bond managers don't make active bets regarding their portfolio's interest rate sensitivity. So it's hard to imagine why individual investors would be able to gain an advantage with those activities. Here, here, that is not spot on.

SPEAKER_02 9:39

Smarter than the future. Yeah. You are you'll never be smarter than the future. You may be luckier than the future, but you cannot, by definition, be smarter than the future because you can't outsmart the future. The fur future cannot be known with any degree of certitude.

SPEAKER_03 9:58

Can't and and we're talking about future could be as next week, right, next month, next year. She does at the end of the article point out something that people forget to. If you go back for the 10-year period, because this has not been a great period of time for bonds.

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No, because we have had uh the first period in decades of rising interest rates. They have not been falling. Interest, remember, interest rates have been had been falling steadily from the 1980s until the 2010s.

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So you got all that capital, you know, added in the long period.

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As rates are falling, the value of your bonds is increasing, so bonds just look great. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:42

No, now they don't, but they're still relatively well. She gives the 10-year, 10-year taxable bond fund, according to her, 3%. Uh 10 years. That there's that's less than the historical average, but nothing wrong with that. Uh, but she says the typical investor in that fund, 2.1%. And we know this over and over. This is the timing thing.

Picking Bond Funds

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Yeah, right, exactly. By the way, I took the liberty of going to Mark Hebner's IFA site and looking at a 60-40 because this is a balance, right, between stocks and bonds and the stock side's global portfolio. 98 years of data now, as we head to 100. Um, gosh, the return for 60% in stocks, 40% in bonds, that portfolio that just doesn't work. 8.4% for basically 100 years. That's that's quite a return.

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Long-term data.

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That's remarkable. Yeah, pretty good.

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It's not bad. Not bad. I looked, and by the way, um, if you're gonna be in a bond fund, there's a couple ways you can go. One of the ways we should we just suggest simple, well-diversified uh BND. It's long and short bonds, it's the whole gamut of bonds, it's all the bonds. It's all the U.S. bonds, it's every one of them, it's a whole market. Very uh with an effective duration when you balance everything out. You balance the long and the short. Don't tell me.

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In the in BND?

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BND, yeah.

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Um it was like seven and a half, I want to say, or something.

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Just under six.

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Okay, okay. So even shorter. That's good.

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Just under six. And BND has a yield of let me just find the current number because I'm speaking from memory. Uh as of today, 4.71 is the SEC yield, 30-day SEC yield. Wow. Pretty pretty good. It's gone up. Yeah.

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As you said, price has gone down.

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Price gone's gone up.

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By the way, BND the year to date is about break even. I mean, I look at this pretty regularly. It hasn't hasn't moved around.

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Yeah, it's about a 1% gain for the year.

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Yeah, it's just it's fine. It's just right.

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You didn't lose money, you didn't make money. Yeah. And that's exactly we are not trying to make money off of bonds. We're just not. But there's another way to do that if you want to be a little more conservative. And by the way, there is for some of you a tax advantage in doing it this way. And this is a fund we should probably mention a little bit more often as an alternative, and that's VGIT, the Vanguard Intermediate Term Treasury Index. Its duration is just under five years, so it's a little bit shorter. Yeah. Not a lot. A little bit. Little tiny bit. And its yield, of course, as you would expect, is a little bit lower. Yeah. 4.45. However, this is a thing we forget to mention sometimes, and we probably should remember it more often. If you're in a high-tax state, New York, California, Massachusetts, got high income tax, this is state tax-free.

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Which is important because those state taxes can be eight, nine, ten percent.

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Right. So that can get your yield, actually, your effective yield up above Vanguard's. Exactly. And reduce your risk slightly at the same time. Yeah, we should be mentioning that more.

SPEAKER_03 13:53

Yeah, no, that is massive.

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If you're a Washingtonian or a Floridian, nah, yeah, yeah. Nothing, nothing in it for you. No big deal. But it's something to consider. So bonds, not evil. Bonds, not great. People say, well, I don't want to be in bonds, I don't make any money. Yeah, that's the whole idea. Well, I don't want to be in bonds, I'm gonna lose money. No, not like you would in stocks. Not even close. And it's unlikely, unlikely. I can't say it's impossible that you know we go banana republic and Argentinian bond on the rest of the world. You never gave me the rate. Unlikely. On what?

SPEAKER_03 14:25

On an Argentinian 30-year bond.

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Oh, oh, okay.

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Remember because I was going to pick on them and say, well, look, the U.S. is at, you know, five, five point two, or whatever, but if you want to loan money to Argentina for their 30-year bond, the number is I have to I have to ask. Because the point is we're trying to say is it's riskier.

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And then and that's you think an Argentine bond would be riskier?

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I think that of all the things he could invest in, that's one that I would say.

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They don't have like a benchmark 30 like we do. But but but wait, I can find a long-dated sovereign bond. Uh let's try to pick on you because I like Leo Messi.

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You know.

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Well, that's not that good. I don't know. Okay, that is good. The um I I found a no, that's just a global. Um let's see. Golly, this is hard to find. You really stumped the bond the bond. You stumped the bond here. Oh, it looks like yield to maturities on long bonds in Argentina are running right around nine to ten percent. Okay. Which is, you know, again, you're That's all like twice ours.

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Yeah. You're getting paid.

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It's not as much over ours as I had I would be.

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Well, there was one time when they had a 99-year bond that was paying like I think 30 percent or something, but they must have cleaned up the treasury, got rid of those or something. So that was a while back. Let's see if it's still trading. If it is, you can count me out of that trade right there, my friend.

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I mean, I would assume it's still trading.

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That's going back a few years. I think it was like 10 years ago, I want to say, or something.

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It's a 2117. Oh. But it was, I think it may have see the reason I'm I'm thinking I read somewhere. I'll be there. I think I read somewhere that it was restructured or something. Um called it and did something else with the money. Okay, it had yeah, it had a seven percent coupon. Okay. Um, and the But that remember that's when rates were zero. Yeah, but it it it was it was part of their debt restructuring, so it's gone.

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Yeah, okay.

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It's gone. Congratulations.

SPEAKER_03 16:40

I won't I'll find Argentina. I will cry for you, and I'm gonna apologize. I'll find a new country to pick on. I'm sorry. So and uh don't cry for me, Argentina.

SPEAKER_02 16:50

We make a slight right turn, or it could be left turn, I'm not sure. If it's Argentina, who knows? Right, left turn. We're going to move over toward uh

Your Questions Answered

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you. We're gonna spend a little time talking about you, answering your questions, the ones you sent in to us via our fancy dancy, really simple website, talkingrealmoney.com. You clicked on the button that says ask a question, you typed it in with your uh your painful arthritic fingers. Okay, I I guess I'm projecting now, uh, and Tom printed them and speaks them like this.

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Like this. Uh and from beautiful Cordelaine, Idaho, where I now see the Kardashians have invaded.

SPEAKER_02 17:33

Court d'Alane is a gorgeous town.

SPEAKER_03 17:35

It's an amazing place, yeah.

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I love Cordelaine.

SPEAKER_03 17:38

Been on the lake many times. Greg writes, I have six million dollars in 90% stocks and ETFs in a taxable Schwab account that pays about $100K a year, I'm imagining, in dividends. I also have $8 million in real estate that produces $600,000 in net rental income. What are you writing to brag? Uh I'm 70. Expect I will have the same assets when I die, which will pass to my heirs with a stepped-up basis. That's exactly right. My children are teenagers and have set up to distribute them by trustee to pay approximately 10% to them until they're 30.

SPEAKER_02 18:13

My question is that these because this is a guy near and dear to your heart. This is a guy who married late or married young. So if his kids are teenagers, I was just doing the math going.

SPEAKER_03 18:23

Oh, it's a Tom Cock. My question, since these funds will be passed to them, I feel I do not need to diversify into bonds. I love the show and appreciate your comments, Greg.

SPEAKER_02 18:35

Right. You don't.

SPEAKER_03 18:36

No. What do you care? Yeah, what do you care? You're not gonna be. If it's just about making money, then bonds.

SPEAKER_02 18:41

Okay, you've been in real estate for a long time through all the ups and downs, the good times and bads. You've written out. Yeah, you've written that out. You haven't freaked. Right. It really is the only reason you would have it is if you needed to have it for your personal comfort. Doesn't sound like it. Doesn't sound like it.

SPEAKER_03 19:00

No. So congratulations on being a father late in life. Joyous. Tom's still proud of that. Ah, joyous and expensive

CD Ladders and Annuities

SPEAKER_03 19:10

both. All right. Salt Lake City, Utah, Douglas writes, I found this podcast last year and now I never miss an episode. You guys rock. Wow, thank you for that. I was going to share that I got a free steak dinner and ended up hitting the jackpot. I bought an annuity that pays out in Bitcoin for the rest of my life. What a great deal. I could have taken the NFT option, but the crypto sounded more exciting. Okay. Real question. I just retired at 61. Building a CD ladder. With the CD ladder, my portfolio is now 52% in stocks, 48% in fixed income and cash. I don't like the lifetime guaranteed income annuity, but what about adding a fixed annuity into my ladder? If the insurance company sells me annuity goes bust, my state will cover up to 250K. I can get an extra 1.3 over the CD rate at a 3 or 5% rung. What do you think about fixed annuities as part of the CD ladder?

SPEAKER_02 20:03

As long as your expectations aren't treasury bill safe high. Because again, the guarantee is only as good as your state's fund. Now, my expectation would be that Utah's is probably pretty well run by. We have had a few situations in the past, and of course, most of us have forgotten them because they happened so long ago. Like four years ago. Oh, you're talking about when we had insurance companies go building up. Like 2008. Before that. No, we have way before that, when Executive Life went under the Trevor Burrus.

SPEAKER_03 20:41

Yeah, that was the 80s, right? Or something?

SPEAKER_02 20:43

When the state the California state pool was threatened by that uh default on those on those annuities. So um Yeah, uh it's it's a trade-off. They're not as risk as risk-less as 100 percent full faith and credit U.S. government securities.

SPEAKER_03 21:04

But they're pretty much No, but he's trying to make the comparison between the fixed income annuity and CDs.

SPEAKER_02 21:11

CDs, which are CDs are basically FDIC is close to full faith and credit. You're dealing with the full faith and credit of the state of Utah v versus the United States of America. That's really the trend.

SPEAKER_03 21:23

And what the payout is going to be a little bit higher on the U.S.

SPEAKER_02 21:27

About one percent per year on a fixed annuity. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 21:30

Higher than the C D rates.

SPEAKER_02 21:31

Than the C D rates, yeah. So again, here's a case where I can see it as long as you know what you're getting into. Understand the the insurance industry likes to say the word guaranteed and throw it around as if it was the same as the government's guarantee. It's not. But it's not nothing either.

SPEAKER_03 21:52

Did I just hear Don McDonald say it's okay to own an annuity? I I take a pill or I got a fever, or something's wrong.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

I mean there's there's an argument to be made for for uh immediate annuities too for some people who just can't. They've got to have an income figure that they can count on every month. Yeah, that's fair.

SPEAKER_03 22:10

Uh second question from Douglas says at what point is it considered putting too much into a CD ladder?

SPEAKER_02 22:17

There is no I don't think there would be.

SPEAKER_03 22:19

I mean, there's nothing you could pile as much in there as you want, right?

SPEAKER_02 22:22

Yeah, as long as you don't exceed the $250,000 per bank per person.

SPEAKER_03 22:26

Right. So you just buy a lot of different insurance. Right. Which you can do now today so darn easily. It's so dear.

SPEAKER_02 22:33

I have a I have a five-year CD ladder at Schwab along with BND. See, I have the best of both worlds. You've got a five-year five-year CD ladder. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:41

I would I would I would shorten that to three, maybe.

SPEAKER_02 22:43

Oh, yeah. You want me to be timing the market?

SPEAKER_03 22:45

No, I want you to be still get the money while you're still locking. Oh, sorry. Uh that was that was kind of mean. Look right behind you. Uh from Shingos, New Jersey. I don't know. No, Ringo's, pardon me, Ringo's, New Jersey.

Fund-of-Funds Strategies

SPEAKER_03 23:00

Not Shingo's. Uh, I apologize, Jeff. Uh hi guys, really enjoy the show. It's time for a new pair of glasses. Exactly. New pair of eyes. And uh been listening for many years. Some of your key themes include simplicity, low fees, indexing, and diversification.

SPEAKER_02 23:14

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 23:14

You've been listening. I love that. It's not not like the people that give me their portfolio and say I've been listening to you for 15 years. And I say, which part were you listening to? Apparently not the part about how to invest. Um, I'm curious why you never talk about using a fund of funds, which seems to easily achieve all these goals.

SPEAKER_02 23:29

Oh my gosh, wait a minute. Hold on.

SPEAKER_03 23:33

Well, let me give you the funds he suggests. I'm not including target date funds, which have moving allocation targets. A one-stop shop. I've been using Fidelity's multi-asset F F N O X and Vanguard's Fort Knox, lock it up, and Vanguard's Life Strategy V A S G X, 8020 or 6040 for many years of great success. You get a consistent stock to bond ratio along with U.S. foreign exposure. Some multi-index funds may lack sufficient small cap exposure. That's exactly right. I looked up FFNOX. It's primarily large. It's a little growth y for me. I'd rather be on the other side of the spectrum. But yeah, we recommend funds of AVGE is a fund of funds. A VGE. I was just gonna say AVGE is a fund of funds. Yeah, these are all they all own other ETFs. You still get them at a very low rate.

SPEAKER_02 24:23

We love funds of funds.

SPEAKER_03 24:25

Um he says some seems like one of these should be a core position for any do-it-yourself investor looking for simplicity and peace of mind. Sure, those are fine, and the fees are actually pretty low on those. That's okay. But again, you're more US and you're more large growth than I'd like. I'd rather see you on the other side. I'd rather see you, and and he admits you don't get as much small and you don't get as much value as you guys talk about. Yeah, that's exactly right.

SPEAKER_02 24:48

Here's the thing the bond part of the portfolio is just way too easy. And and if you're using a CD ladder, it's really easy. Really easy. But uh there's just get an we would rather see you in an A V G E or a D FAW. Sure. Or even really a VT with a bond fund. But uh but there are there are balanced funds out there.

SPEAKER_03 25:15

The Van Vanger, Van Vanger balanced index, sure.

SPEAKER_02 25:17

Yeah, I think that's all U.S.

SPEAKER_03 25:18

though.

SPEAKER_02 25:19

It is all U.S. You're right. You're right, you're right.

SPEAKER_03 25:22

But those are all fine, and yes, which we recommend fund to funds on a regular basis. Yeah, I don't think Avant is still an extra. Uh no, I don't believe so. Nor van. I don't think EFA does it either. Well, they have a balanced um mutual fund. But I don't think that's not an ETF. Not an ETF. No, I think that's right. So yeah. Yeah. So those are those are very fine. Those are fine funds. Again, you could do one of those and then add in, for example, 20% small cap value or something. Yeah. Speaking of fund of funds. So those are all good. Thanks. Great question. Thank you for your kind comments, as always. Very nice. Thank you. We need more questions, and I need to talk to more people because September's here. Summer's over. Can't get back in the lake. Well I'm gonna get in the lake one more time, the 21st, which looks like a Monday. Uh, because I get in the last day of summer and it's gonna be cold because I'm gonna go.

SPEAKER_02 26:12

So literally the 21st, the 20th could be wait, be the 21st. 21st could be the last show we were for. If I jump in and that's the first time, have a heart attack, it's just gonna kill him. Um, all kidding. It's not the monster, it's just the lake itself.

SPEAKER_03 26:26

You remember when you had everybody convinced the monster of Lake Shallan was?

SPEAKER_02 26:30

It's when your daughter was young. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:32

I think she hasn't gotten over that.

SPEAKER_02 26:33

Actually, I did find that there was myth and legend about the Lake Shallan monster.

SPEAKER_03 26:39

I found a book about it.

SPEAKER_02 26:40

It was like Native American legend or something. That there was a monster. Lake Shallan is a very deep lake.

SPEAKER_03 26:46

Yeah, big deep lake.

SPEAKER_02 26:47

Yeah. That way down deep in the lake lived the Lake Shillan monster. And I I convinced Arya, his daughter, who's now in college, that there was a monster and her friends. She had her friend.

SPEAKER_03 26:57

Oh, yeah, friends with her, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:58

And we were doing the whole thing. I even I even took a picture and didn't tell them, and I faked a I drew a monster into it. I said, I got up late last night, and look what I I does this look like a monster in the lake? They were like buying it. They were having so much fun. Great child raiser, you know. They love to be scary. No, they come on, they love scary stories.

SPEAKER_03 27:21

I'm gonna ask her today about what her recollection of that is. The lake shallang. I never get in that lake again. Any rate, um, so I have more time now. By the way, she's gotten in the lake since. Yes, she has gotten in the lake many times. Oh, I have more time now, and I want to talk to you. I want to talk to you about your asset allocation. I want to talk to you about your plan. I want to do all that stuff. Um he doesn't want to get paid for it. Big pimping, as they would say, right? So you're not getting paid for it. There's no big pimping going on.

Connect and Listen More

SPEAKER_03 27:46

I'm sorry. So, anyway, if you'd like to do that, you'd like to have a little chat, you just go to, I think it's just talkingreal money.com. Click on seriously to this day advisor. I have no idea. I I'm sitting around listening to music all the time. I got no time for talk. So um I gotta tell you, the music, it shocks me to see how many people are listening to the music. The last one I really like. I was going What's the one I really like? What's the song?

SPEAKER_02 28:11

You really like the title song from the album, Let the Boring Money In.

SPEAKER_03 28:15

Yeah, that's really good. I love the guitars and all that. You guys must have spent a lot of time on that. So I didn't.

SPEAKER_02 28:21

It was just the computer thing did it. And I'm sorry if some of you are ticked off about that.

SPEAKER_03 28:27

It's fast forward. As you said, you can just click twice and you're it's over. Anyway, uh, so go to the fill out the form. I'm happy to chat with you about anything. And ask me. The offside law, preferably, by the way. That's what I'd like to do. So you what? I want to talk about the offside law. Make sure you understand it well before we get into the soccer season. The law? This is a law? This is a law, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:50

Is this a law in the state of Washington that you're not allowed to dry up on the wrong side of the street or something? Law 11. You need to. You're offside? You're like your whistle? Cops with yellow cards?

SPEAKER_03 29:00

Cops with yellow cards. Is that a new is that a new show? I don't want to know.

SPEAKER_02 29:04

Cops with yellow cards. Uh go ask questions too. Tom needs some paper ones at talkingrealmoney.com on the ask a question button. Or if you like to speak them, speak them with the mic, send them to me. I'll do them on Fridays. Thanks so much for listening. And remember, this is the place where we're talking real money.

SPEAKER_00 29:26

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