Better Income?

SPEAKER_00 0:05

You're gonna do a really great financial future. Tom and Don are talking real money.

Retirement Income Debate

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There's a popular belief among the financial pundits and among investors that the way to create an income in retirement, the best way to create an income in retirement is to own income-producing securities like bonds and dividend-paying stocks, high dividend stocks. Well, is that actually the way you should go? That's the topic of today's Talking Real Money episode with me, Don McDonald, him, Tom Cock, and you are lovely, lovely listeners out there. Thank you for being there so much. So when you get to retirement, should you build a dividend and interest paying portfolio, or should you go for what is called a total return portfolio, where you take a percentage of your assets every year from whatever portion of the portfolio creates that income, creates those returns. And that's a running debate. There was a recent article in Morningstar that addressed that. Our good friend Larry Swedro uh touched recently on the topic of dividends. And so what say you, Mr. Cox?

SPEAKER_03 1:21

Well, the thing, and by the way, uh you can you can learn my uh my longer opinion on this by going to retiremeet.com and watching my uh my talk from RetireMeet. By the way, it'd be great because I think you're still ahead of me in total count. Am I really? I know. Last I looked, you were so this is my way of okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:41

If you're gonna watch his, watch mine twice.

SPEAKER_03 1:44

Okay. It's probably twice as good. Yeah, this is this comes up a lot, right? There's people that come in the office and say, hey, I got this portfolio, just turn the dividends on, pay me, we're all good. Because it it creates a what they would call a known source of income rather than in most people's minds relying on the market for their income. Well, that gets that's the bottom line here, right?

SPEAKER_02 2:08

Trevor Burrus, Jr. Total return portfolio is not saying, well, I'm just gonna take it from the appreciation in the stocks. That's not the way it works. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_03 2:14

No, it's not the way it works. But most people view it that way. And they view it like, well, stocks uh are doing well, have done well, I'm gonna take the money out, et cetera, et cetera. But a total return strategy is more involved than that. It does, yes, you get the dividends, you get the interest, you get all that stuff, but you rebalance it, and from that rebalance, you create the cash you need, or you buy the things that haven't done as well, you rebalance the portfolio, all those kind of deals.

SPEAKER_02 2:42

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Again, you've got multiple sources of income. You still you have a bond portfolio that is throwing off some income. It is not all the income you need. There are some dividends that you cannot re-inv you should just take. And then you add rebalancing into that, and you probably don't even have to sell appreciated securities, or at least not very many of them. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_03 3:04

Yeah. No, but but here's the advantage people who take the dividend approach. We'll talk about a few of these uh ETFs that are paying this out. It allows, this is from the article, it allows income-focused investors to compare their annual investment income with their living expenses. In other words, you could just say, well, I'm gonna be at a four percent dividend payout. That that amount of my portfolio will pay the bills. And it feels steady in some ways, right? Rather than watching the market go up and down.

SPEAKER_02 3:34

Right. It feels more predictable. Um, but the reality is, by the way, four percent dividends or four percent or more in dividends usually means a stock that's not in the best of shape most of the time, or is not a big grower. It's you know, con uh a utility or something.

SPEAKER_03 3:53

Aaron Powell Yeah, and we'll talk about you you had a great example. So I went by the way, I went ahead and looked at just a global portfolio, an AVGE, for example, the dividend there, uh the dividend payout, the yield, if you will, is about two percent. VT, the Vanguard total global fund, it's a little less than two percent. So you're getting your two percent there, but it's nothing like the people that buy some of these the I'll give the ticker in just a minute here because these ones that scare me to death. I gotta say, and we touched on one recently, I think it was JEPI, right? The uh the Oh, that was a covered call writing one from they were to use the covered calls, right? And to sort of the boost this up because JEPI, uh I just looked this up too. It's it's paying out eight point four percent. I I always think, how is that sustainable for a long period of time?

SPEAKER_02 4:43

Well, remember, part of that is a return of your principal. That could be this money from the stocks. Because you remember a call writing portfolio is is often ends up selling off the stocks.

SPEAKER_03 4:55

And this is the part thank you. This is a very important part of the dividend concept that most people ignore. They only look at the number. I'm getting 8.4, I'm getting six, whatever it is. That's right. But remember, when a a st when a company issues a dividend, the price is correspondingly reduced. This is the part that most people forget about.

SPEAKER_02 5:16

That's what that whole X dividend date thing you hear about is. When a stock trades X dividend, that means it pays it it it the price adjusts to the reduction that takes place when a dividend is going to be paid out. The stock is adjusted by the amount of the dividend. It goes down. So you get the dividend, but your stock goes down by the amount of the dividend.

SPEAKER_03 5:37

And this gets back to something you you just mentioned, Larry Swedro, a moment ago, who recently wrote dividends are not income. And he says academic research will tell you that dividend payments by themselves don't increase your net worth. Pay attention to those words. I think they're very important, especially for those of you who have it want a sustainable portfolio, which most people want in retirement, right? They're not just looking for the next one or two years. They're in many cases planning on 20 years. I was just thinking about my when I start drawing on my money, I'll be so old to go over the matter because I won't have that many years ahead of me. I mean, that's

Dividend Trap Explained

SPEAKER_03 6:12

one strategy, right? Right. It's just keep working. Just keep working. So um but describe for us, if you will, because this is in the article, and it's a term that I had not heard in many years. How would you describe the dividend trap?

SPEAKER_02 6:27

The dividend trap.

SPEAKER_03 6:29

Yeah, I mean, Morningstar, it says they were they're writing about it back in the late 1990s. Um the idea here that you're getting these yields and you're not giving anything up for them, which we just have to do.

SPEAKER_02 6:43

The fact that we're thinking that these are free money.

SPEAKER_03 6:45

Exactly. That's the trap, right?

SPEAKER_02 6:47

Yeah, I mean, it it it means it doesn't mean a lot. It what the dividend trap is uh here, I'll give you a great example of a stock that's a dividend trap stock. Okay? I was looking for the highest dividend yielding stocks out there, and this one came up from Yahoo Finance. I had never heard of them. A company called GMEX, GMEX Robotics Corporation. I think they're based in Australia, but I may be wrong. Now, GMEX pays a really nice dividend. Their dividend has been in the past like five dollars a share. Okay? Sounds really good, right? It does sound good. Yeah. Well, but that dividend started when the stock was trading at about between ten and forty thousand or thirty-five thousand dollars a share. Okay? Not that high at thirty-five thousand dollars a share. No. However, this year, because they had made some bad crypto trades. They were trading crypto trades.

SPEAKER_03 7:46

Wait, they were trading crypto?

SPEAKER_02 7:47

Yeah, trading crypto.

SPEAKER_03 7:48

Good lord.

SPEAKER_02 7:49

Uh bad crypto trades, uh actually it was it was late last uh yeah, the early last year the stock plunged. Uh the stock price plummeted down to well, single digits. Uh s not single digits, like uh thousand dollars instead of thirty-five thousand dollars.

SPEAKER_03 8:06

That's quite a plunge, yes.

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And then by twenty twenty-six it was down to a buck and a half, two bucks, three bucks, four bucks.

SPEAKER_03 8:15

Oh.

SPEAKER_02 8:16

Yeah. From thirty-five thousand.

SPEAKER_03 8:18

That's quite a reduction in the middle of the year.

SPEAKER_02 8:20

Which means for as long as they continue to pay it, and we don't know that they'll continue to pay it in twenty twenty-six, the last dividend they paid was in twenty twenty-five, the stock is yielding three hundred percent. There's a dividend. Based on the past dividend. Now, that doesn't mean we're gonna get that, because we don't know if they're gonna pay the next dividend, but based on the past dividend, it's yielding three hundred percent.

SPEAKER_03 8:45

Yeah. It may end up being like Whirlpool straight down the drain. Um, I mean you're not getting that.

SPEAKER_02 8:50

Well, this is much more extreme than that. And other dividend yields you find at, you know, 20 and 30 percent and those are not sustainable.

SPEAKER_03 8:57

How about ULTY, the yield max ultra option income strategy, which has a twelve trailing twelve-month yield in excess of you guessed it, one hundred percent. Yeah.

unknown 9:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:11

People get sold this stuff all the time. It it just it seems And it seems like magic money. It does. It's found money. It that's what people generally tell me. Well, I'm getting all that money.

SPEAKER_02 9:22

You get that again. This is one of my favorite favorite sayings in the world of money. These things work right up until they don't. And they don't warn you

Why Total Return Wins

SPEAKER_02 9:34

when this happens.

SPEAKER_03 9:35

No, they don't. But let's go back to where you started because I think this is a very important point for people that are thinking about retirement and how to finance it. The academics have looked at this many, many times. You could you could go online and and and and read their discussions about why it makes more sense to have a total return strategy. As I said, things go up, et cetera, et cetera. You rebalance them, you collect the money from that to pay yourself. Why that is a better approach than a dividend strategy. Number one, again, when you limit your portfolio, we we've discussed Professor Bessenbinder's fine work that only 4% of stocks have beaten T-bills for a long period, very hundred years. When you eliminate, when you reduce your diversification, there's a good chance you're diversifying out of the 4% that will make that return, right? You want as much diversification as you can get. Number two, you want to be able to rebalance this portfolio. That's what the total return strategy does for you. For example, this year. This year, the the emerging markets are up another 25%. They were up 35% last year. You want to be able to trim those things that have gone up and buy the things that have not done as well. Hint, hint, U.S. large, for example.

SPEAKER_02 10:51

And by the way, remember, in the trimming, when you get to your your income phase of life, that trimming provides you with either money to reinvest, or if your income stream from your portfolio doesn't cover your expenses, you use some of that to live on. Exactly. So you could it's money that you've it's money that you've made.

SPEAKER_03 11:12

That's right. So again, we're we we're not I don't well, I don't like these products that in fact I really hate them, because I think people are being misled into into buying something I think is as you use the word magic. But I would prefer to see use the total return strategy. Most advisors use the total return strategy just because it's been more sustainable.

SPEAKER_02 11:36

Exactly. Which is what we're looking at, right? And we're looking at sustainable, we're looking at sensible, we're looking at uh remember, anytime you reach for a higher return, you're going to somewhere along the way get more risk. The problem is most of the time that risk is not obvious. When you have a well-diversified portfolio, the risk is easily defined and understood. Because we can look back at a hundred years of data or more on how markets have performed, stock markets and bond markets, some of these gadget gizmo garbage products, you don't know how they're likely to perform because they have no history with their little gimmick.

SPEAKER_03 12:20

Yeah, and and that's where people get left, right? When they find out that the gimmick doesn't work, when they find out how much they're paying for the magic, and when they find out years into retirement that this is not something that's going to work for a very long period of time. And you need to plan for a very long time. I jokingly mentioned that my retirement's going to be short. But uh, for most people, you should be planning for that 20 to 25 years. And that's another peep other area where people are short-sighted because they only see what they're getting today and they're not thinking about that long period of time they're going to need that income. Very important. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_02 12:53

So we're big believers in the total return strategy.

SPEAKER_03 12:56

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: It's worked. And again, for those of you who want to see it in in person with me delivering that message, retire me.com and click on my talk, not his talk.

SPEAKER_02 13:05

He's desperate for this is sad. It's like you know, doing a show with you is like playing cards with my wife.

SPEAKER_03 13:12

She cheating?

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Hates to lose.

SPEAKER_03 13:14

Oh, she is she is very competitive.

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Trevor Burrus, Jr. hates to lose. And she's a good card player.

SPEAKER_03 13:20

Are you playing a lot of bridge now? Two two-person bridge, or what are you doing?

SPEAKER_02 13:24

Yeah, we're playing that silly two-handed bridge, which you know, you know all the cards. It's like what's the point? But it's mainly for practice. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:31

Because she's she's playing bridge company.

SPEAKER_02 13:33

She's playing bridge with serious bridge players. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:36

She's uh I'll sell you a bridge in Florida kind of thing, or does that work or not?

SPEAKER_02 13:41

I tried that joke, it didn't go over. None of my jokes go over with Debbie. None. Not one. She is a I might I might get a smirk. I might.

SPEAKER_03 13:50

That's what I get from her, and that's what I get at home, too.

SPEAKER_02 13:52

I get an eye roll or a smirk.

SPEAKER_03 13:54

That's okay. Join the club.

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Come on.

Ask Tom Questions

SPEAKER_02 13:58

So that's can't be considered. It would be Tom taking a call question time. It would be. But it's not. The reason it's not is because you apparently not only do you like my uh my retire meet video better, but you like the uh speaking the questions now so that I put them on the Friday podcast better. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_03 14:17

Why have you forsaken me? What what did I do? I don't understand.

SPEAKER_02 14:20

Uh so uh if you want to uh have a conversation with Tom and you know make it a question on the air, you need to go to talkingrealmoney.com and click on the ask a question button. You can type your question in and uh some of them, the ones that require a bit more conversation, shall we say, uh Tom will just get in touch with you on the phone and we put it in the podcast. Otherwise, he gets them, he prints them, and then he does this with them.

SPEAKER_03 14:47

Yeah, I'm going to read them by the way.

SPEAKER_02 14:50

And and tries to tries to find a place to make it humorous, which yeah, I'll do the best I can.

SPEAKER_03 14:54

I gotta say, uh there is no oblig I've written a few people, of course, about doing the phone call, and some feel kind of sheepish about saying they didn't want to do that. That's fine. You were you type it, you don't want to you you don't want to be on the program. That that that's not a problem.

SPEAKER_02 15:07

So Tom just likes talking to you.

SPEAKER_03 15:10

It's fine, it's all good. So let's go to one of those questions right now from Birmingham, Alabama.

Robinhood and Gamification

SPEAKER_03 15:15

JJ writes uh Robinhood is great, is the subject. You need to get over your hatred of the Robin Hood platform. While they offer other newer products, they don't push or care coerce you into these products. Their interface is nicer and slicker and more intuitive. Their ease of use is superior to the stodgy brokerage houses of old. Many younger people are excited to use this updated UI. We're also smart enough not to get drawn into gambling or trash products. Give us some credit, please. They paid me 2% on all my assets to custody them. Schwab Fidelity have never paid a nickel. The younger generation is moving to the better product. Please be more open-minded to newer technology if you intend to resonate with anyone under the age of 50. All right. All right.

SPEAKER_02 16:01

I I got this one.

SPEAKER_03 16:02

I got I got this one. Um my hatred's stronger than yours in this case.

SPEAKER_02 16:07

Yeah, your hatred is stronger than mine. I have many a time said, hey, if they're gonna give you free money, and you, you, as does our correspondent, you have the intestinal fortitude and the willpower to avoid the nudges, the ease of trading that they provide, because that's what they do. They have gamified the whole process of trading, and that's what Tom doesn't like about it, and I don't like it that much either, but I do give some of you credit that of course you're grown up enough to not fall for it. The problem is not everybody is. Bingo. Particularly when it comes to people of a certain age group. And I I won't I won't. You know who you are. Yeah, you know who you are. You like gamified stuff, and you think options are a quick way to make money. You think crypto isn't as a great investment. You think the whole process is entertaining because you know, many of you not only do you do Robin Hood, but you sports bet. Or you you get in on these uh these these these betting online things that are illegal in a lot of places. It's you know, some of the some of the dislike is is deserved. But again, if they're gonna pay you two percent and you're gonna keep your money there and you're not gonna let them make money as much money off your money, great, good for you. Problem is they're paying that because they know that they're gonna get more people to do the stuff that makes them more money, and it's worthwhile to them to get that money into their universe so that they can get you to options trade or buy crypto. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_03 17:55

But but back to JJ's point. Um that I don't know, by the way, if their website is slicker. I don't know if their trading platform is easier because I'm not a trader and I really don't care about that stuff. So it is.

SPEAKER_02 18:10

It actually is. I've looked at Robin Hood's platform. And it's attractive, it's more fun, it's brighter, it's it's it's it's you know, Schwab is stodgy. I like stodgy though for money.

SPEAKER_03 18:21

That's what I was getting at.

SPEAKER_02 18:23

Money and stodge go great together.

SPEAKER_03 18:25

Money and stodge go. Okay, that was mildly funny. That gets better than an eye roll. I the thing is, Robin Hood can live and flourish if they wish. I'm only the only reason I'm so vociferously opposed to them is I worry that people who are not, perhaps like you, JJ, who are not experienced, get in there and they get sold stuff, they get excited about stuff, and uh the word that you use, gamification, is exactly right. It becomes a game rather than investing, should be boring. I think the term was there should be like watching paint dry or grass grow. This really isn't the the idea here is not to get all worked up about things. So that's why I don't like their business model.

SPEAKER_02 19:08

Personally, he gets more worked up than I do.

SPEAKER_03 19:11

I saw today that now they're making it so that you can use AI to uh to trade and to to make buys on your credit card. So they can they can pick out tra uh these are very creative, very innovative, I'll give you that. But I again Well, but here's the thing.

SPEAKER_02 19:28

I'm not gonna bottom line. Yeah. Robin Hood isn't in and of itself a problem. It's not dangerous because it's cool and modern. That's not what's dangerous about it. It's dangerous because it has turned investing for some into a casino game.

SPEAKER_03 19:45

And that's exactly the wrong direction, as Don just said. Sports betting, prediction markets, all that stuff is taking away money that people should

Auto-Savings for Workers

SPEAKER_03 19:54

be saving for the future. And that brings me to my final point today, which I'm very happy to read in the Wall Street Journal, that Philadelphia is uh starting up the nation's first operational city-run savings program for workers. Says there's over 200,000 people that live there that do not have access to an employer plan. Now I know there's gonna be, I get the haters are gonna write me and say, Oh, you're a big government guy. You want the gut. No, I'm not a big government guy. Never have been. But I do want people to save for retirement. I want it to make it easy because most people, the minute if you go to work for somebody and there's a plan and the default is you're in the plan, that works most of the time. Not all the time, but most of the time, right? When you don't have that and you have to write a check to yourself or figure out how to save money to put away for your retirement, it's very, very difficult. I'll that's all I'm going to say about it.

SPEAKER_02 20:46

It goes against human nature.

SPEAKER_03 20:48

It does. So the point of the matter is that now that Philadelphia is rolling out this place, it is voluntary too, by the way, so you can choose to opt out. But the the idea here is for very small businesses, and there are a lot of very small businesses that cannot afford a 401k. It was a few years before we started ours at Vestry, I believe. I don't think we had one for a couple years.

SPEAKER_02 21:08

It wasn't it was an expense. It was an expense. That then that required money we didn't actually have.

SPEAKER_03 21:14

Yeah, so we didn't do it. But this is uh and this is by the way, 17 states, it says also have the auto-ira system, which I think makes sense. Um it's still, by the way, in those states, 30% of workers ultimately opt out. Okay, you can't make everybody and that I don't think it should be mandatory. I uh but the idea here that the government is going to do something to make it easier for people work for small companies to save is a I in my mind a really good one, and I'm I'm happy to see it happen in the city of brotherly love.

SPEAKER_02 21:46

And the argument for it is so straightforward. This is the best argument for automatic enrollment, and that is it's the same logic. That the government takes when it comes to taxes. Taxes are not something you pay after you make money. You pay them when you make money, and it's mandatory. If all of us had to write a check to the IRS or our various states that have income taxes every year for that huge percentage of our income for some of us, well, huge. I mean, it's not like it was in the 60s, 20, you know, 25% or whatever. Exactly. So you've got to make it easy. The easier you make it for people to put money away, the more likely they are to do it. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_03 22:47

Yeah. So well done, Philadelphia. I'll watch to see if this is a trend. Seventeen states already have it, Philly's got it. So let's keep it rolling across this great country.

SPEAKER_02 22:57

Absolutely. And let's keep those questions rolling in at talkingrealmoney.com. Click on the contact form. It's act it's actually not not the contact form anymore. I redid the website. It is it says ask a question.

SPEAKER_03 23:08

Couldn't be any more basic than that. Right.

SPEAKER_02 23:10

It says ask a question. Then or down in the corner of the screen, you'll see on every page a microphone picture. Punch that. Record your question.

SPEAKER_03 23:21

Wait, no punching. We're not punching it. Not hitting anymore.

SPEAKER_02 23:24

Click it okay. Click it. Be less violent. Click it.

Free Portfolio Review

SPEAKER_02 23:27

And um let's see, what else do we need to remind people of? Uh you want to talk with one of our advisors at Appella? It's free, no obligation, and no high-pressure sales pitch. It's not a sales meeting. It's actually a meeting in which people have told us they get a lot of help. I apparent I I I've never taken one, but I assume that they're good.

SPEAKER_03 23:48

I think you're okay. Yeah, but the thing is you get the free portfolio analysis and then you get to spend time with an advisor to say, well, I'm thinking about this, I'm doing this. It's really good. So yes, it's it's been a great tool.

SPEAKER_02 23:59

And again, it's not like those steak dinner things where you sign up for that free consultation and you get nothing but a sales pitch.

SPEAKER_03 24:09

Trevor Burrus, Jr. Well, yeah, there's no stake uh here. So the sizzle really is gone. Sorry about that.

SPEAKER_02 24:13

We have no stake. Yeah. But we do have a stake in your future.

SPEAKER_03 24:18

Oh, that was good. Okay. Thank you.

Book Talk and Family History

SPEAKER_03 24:21

All right. Well, I think we're done.

SPEAKER_02 24:25

We don't have a lot of questions. What? Okay.

SPEAKER_03 24:27

We're going to drive a stake through your heart to finish the show, or how's this going to be? Oh, please don't.

SPEAKER_02 24:30

Okay. I'm going to die soon enough. I don't want to rush the process.

SPEAKER_03 24:34

We're not going to push your age on anybody at this point, so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:37

Let's not do that either. That one's coming up really soon. Yeah. Oh, and by the way, thank you to the folks who went out and bought the line uncrossed on Amazon. Bunch of you bought it. It did really well. It's been doing well. Better than I expected. But it's been selling pretty well.

SPEAKER_03 24:56

Lonely guy. Not getting rich off of it. That's okay. People are reading it. It's a great work. The best Civil War uh historical fiction book since uh Killer Angels.

SPEAKER_02 25:08

I you know, we've been friends for a long time. I'm feeling like you're maybe a little biased.

SPEAKER_03 25:13

I'm telling you. I I I read you know how much history I read. I read a lot. It was funny.

SPEAKER_02 25:18

I gave a copy to a friend, you know, a pre-release copy, and he's not a big reader. He's an architect, but he doesn't read a lot. Um smart guy. He started reading, he goes, This will take me like six months to read. Uh less than a week later, he goes, I had to stop myself because I didn't want it to end.

SPEAKER_03 25:37

That's how I felt that.

SPEAKER_02 25:39

Just didn't want the story to end yet.

unknown 25:42

I love it.

SPEAKER_02 25:42

And I went, that's like the biggest compliment you can pay somebody who wrote a book is that you didn't want the story to end. Yeah. Problem is it doesn't lend itself to a sequel. So it's pretty much. Pretty much after uh John Anderson, our family did nothing.

SPEAKER_03 26:05

I mean, it was pretty So that was the peak, that was the end of the yeah. Okay. All right. Well that happens. I think it's my family after my father, it's the same thing.

SPEAKER_02 26:13

Yeah, they they went into the grocery business. There's not a great story there.

SPEAKER_03 26:16

Aaron Powell No, that's that's not very not as exciting, certainly, as going into the Civil War at age 14. No.

SPEAKER_02 26:22

Not on the not on that side. Well, no, not on the McDonald's side either. There was nothing there.

SPEAKER_03 26:27

There's not even a kilt of anything we could do.

SPEAKER_02 26:29

I could go I could go way back. And this is uh actually somebody suggested I do this, but I'm not. I'm not writing another book anytime soon. It turns out my multiple great-grandfather on my mother's side, she John Anderson's on my father's side. Yes. Uh was John Early.

SPEAKER_03 26:47

I know the name, but I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 26:49

He was the white knight. Literally the white knight in England. He fought for the king or something and uh against Cromwell or was that in the 1400s, 1500s, somewhere around there. Okay, okay. Yeah. Uh really interesting. I thought, wow. I want you to do my dad's. The story's so great because here's the deal. He was like the knight, his the whole family was like knighted. And then they came to America and they were colonels and captains in the Revolutionary War, in the War of 1812.

SPEAKER_03 27:21

Sounds like a story there.

SPEAKER_02 27:22

Then one of them fought at Gettysburg in the Civil War, got shot in the face, just like John Anderson, uh, an earl, and then after the Civil War, they moved to Mississippi. Well, before the Civil War, they moved to Mississippi. And then they they became impoverished. It it happens. I they I mean, my gr my grandfather graduated eighth grade and was a moodenshiner and a mule skinner in Arkansas.

SPEAKER_03 27:51

I mean, sounds like a story there to me too, by the way. Rags to riches to rags.

SPEAKER_02 27:57

Rags to rags? No, riches riches to riches to rags. Okay. Because they own plantations in Virginia. Uh-huh. And then it didn't work out. So anyway. So that's the end of this show. I don't know why I kept talking.

SPEAKER_03 28:09

Um let's put a stake in it and kill it, okay?

SPEAKER_02 28:11

Yeah. Let's just put a stake in it. Not me, it. Thanks for listening. We appreciate you being there. Tell a friend or two or ten, and uh keep listening. Every day to talking real money.

SPEAKER_01 28:25

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